And because I can admit when I’m wrong, I need to correct something I asserted earlier.
The defense’s burden at trial is not a preponderance. All they have to do is assert the claim of self defense. This does make its burden different than at pretrial, which is a preponderance.
That said, my point still stands. If the defense passes up the opportunity to have murder charges dismissed outright because it thinks its stores of evidence don’t constitute a preponderance sufficient to outweigh the State’s evidence, this should be taken as an admission that the State has a stronger case than the defense.
It remains to be seen whether Zimmerman is even entitled to the protections of SYG protections. I haven’t seen anything definite in this regard.
ETA: this article helped me understand some things about SYG that i didn’t before. The most interesting part in the last two paragraphs. According to the author, all that stuff about how SYG tied LE’s hands in arresting Zimmerman early on is nonsense. It makes perfect sense to me why Lee was made to step down then. http://www.husseinandwebber.com/stand_your_ground.html
How do we know this? We know that Martin and Zimmerman were fighting, but it’s not assault if Zimmerman made the first move is it? How do you know that Zimmerman didn’t land the first blow / try to restrain Martin first?
Given that an armed Zimmerman was following a frightened Martin down a dark back lane, couldn’t we equally as logically say that Zimmerman wanted a confrontation? Particularly after being asked NOT to follow by the 911 operator?
Yes, this is rehashing a lot of old arguements - but you don’t KNOW what happened anymore than anyone else does. Everything you say you know, you are viewing through a prism of your own beliefs, assumptions and a lot of very imperfect knowledge.
And once again - GZ’s supporters continue to completely ignore repeated requests to address the inconsistencies in George’s story as pointed out in post #2802, #2816, #2837 and so on.
Well…he saw a person. Walking home from the store. Apparently, in GZ’s world, you’re not allowed to go shopping in the dark in a light rain. BTW, what was GZ doing out that evening?
Interesting. In the video re-enactment, Zimmerman first tells us that he forgot the name of the street he was on. You know, the same street HE LIVES ON. In a neighborhood with THREE STREETS. The neighborhood he’s been patroling as a neighborhood watch volunteer. Even tho he’s able to give the address of the clubhouse earlier in the phone call, and is able to give fairly precise directions on getting to his car.
Later in the video, he insists that the dispatcher ‘needed the exact address of where he was’, so GZ had to get out of the car to ‘find a street sign’. Of course, this isn’t true - he gets out of the car when he sees Martin running away (2:10 or so in the phone call). The dispatcher doesn’t ask for an address until 3:30 or so into the phone call, and when GZ says he can’t give an exact address (which is true - he’s in the path behind the houses; house numbers would be on the front), he and the dispatcher quickly agree to meet at the clubhouse.
But in the re-enactment video, he insists that he kept walking to the end of the foot path to the other street to ‘find a street sign’. What the hell good would a street sign there be? The street sign wouldn’t help locate Martin; Martin was gone. It wouldn’t help the police to George, they had already agreed to meet at the clubhouse. It wouldn’t help the police to locate George’s car, it was parked near the clubhouse, on the street where George lived, remember?
So by your statement that George ‘gave them directions to his car and agreed to meet them there. His motive was to direct them to Martin’, what you really mean is “he tried to find a sign on a street where Martin wasn’t, where George’s car wasn’t, and where George wasn’t going to be”. Got it.
We do?? Really?
Ah, you make a very good point, but not the one I think you intended to make. You think Zimmerman was worried about being arrested if he tried to detain Martin? That is the most amazing thing you’ve posted in this thread so far, and believe me, that’s saying a lot. WTF would Zimmerman be worried about being arrested?? He’s the one that called the cops about the possibly armed suspicious guy, that he decided to get out of his truck and chase! He’s not worried about getting arrested, he’s worried about ‘another asshole’ getting away! The point you just inadvertantly made is showing that GZ clearly knew he only had to detain Martin for a little bit before the cops arrived.
Hmm - in the 911 call, GZ says that Martin was running away. George gets out of his car and runs after him. I find it fascinating that you conclude from this that -Martin- was trying to instigate a confrontration.
If in your mind, then these two examples are equal levels of absurdity, then it’s probably best to let you have a discussion with someone else. I don’t do the shouting across the back fence type of debates very well. I will provide the requested link.
Here you are. The one to listen to isFlorida Department of Law Enforcement Track 1 – March 20, 2012 (~45 min).
This interview is after the statement which you linked, and in which he clarifies his testimony. Typically using the older statement and not the latest which corrects and clarifies the previous is a more compelling argument.
It really was my fault, I had read your post and assumed you were having a straightforward, do you believe W, X, Y and Z, which leads to conclusion A? That allows a reasonable discourse. No, I don’t believe in Y, so I don’t come to the same conclusion. I see many posters are simply shouting past each other, so carry on with one of them.
This was in rebuttal to the question if Martin was straddling Zimmerman or not, and the question was specifically directed to others’ testimonies and not GZ’s account. The witness says Martin was not straddling Timmerman. If you are to include examining GZ’s account, then the inconsistencies must be looked at and evaluated, comparing witnesses as well.
Again, my post was a rebuttal to a specific question if others believed four statements which lead to a specific conclusion. I introduced evidence that one of the four statements was shown to be in error and thus the conclusion would not stand on its own.
Anywho, for the question of wrestling vs. straddling. I would be very interested in hearing something authoritative on SYG and what level of threat would trigger the SYG immunity. From the statue:
IANAL, do not play one on TV and I’m definitely not a defense attorney, but I’ll throw my take out there. Feel free to point out errors.
If we assume that GZ had a legal right to be behind the houses, then there are the questions if he was attacked or not, and if if there was a reasonable belief that using deadly force was necessary to do so in order to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself. As he had injuries and Martin did not, it may very well be that he was attacked, but let’s leave aside that question for the moment and concentrate if there was a reasonable believe of death or great bodily harm.
Unless there are clear guidelines, and if it is left to the jury or judge to determine what is a reasonable belief, then it becomes necessary to look at that. I can see that there would be quite a range of opinions on what is a reasonable belief. My wife, far smarter than I, carefully chose friends who didn’t initiate bar fights. She’s never been hit in her life, and could very well believe that after the first punch she was in mortal danger. One would assume that O’Mara would attempt to stack the jury with 12 five-foot one-inch, 92 lb Asian chicks.
OTOH, with my lesser wisdom in acquaintances, I’ve been involved in a couple of exchanges. Until I defriended the guy, he would start something and it would sometimes spill over to involve others, and I would be on receiving side. Without any martial arts or boxing training, I quickly found that grappling with the other person was the quickest way to protect myself from getting hurt. Inevitably, the wrestling match would get broken up without injuries. That actually only happened a couple of times before I realized the problem was with my friend’s method of stress relief, and so I only have a limited number of data points.
Have you ever been pinned down by someone who is on top of your chest, straddling you? My older brother used to do that to me, and you really feel helpless. I can see an increased level of fear in that circumstance. I don’t know if that rises to the level of justified use of deadly force, though.
OK, now that we are going to look at Zimmerman’s account, we also have to examine the inconsistencies as well.
The broken nose and black eyes are evidence of being hit in the face, which seems to me to be more likely when they were standing than wrestling. Let’s look at the two injuries to the back of the head. I don’t find that consistent with Zimmerman’s account of his head being repeatedly bashed onto concrete, with the severity that he thought it was going to explode. If he was punched down, that could account for one of the injuries. That would leave being bashed one more time. Or, if he didn’t hit his head on the fall, either Martin was doing baby bashes onto the concrete or it was a maximum of twice. Again, the question must be asked if that rises to the level of a reasonable belief in death or great bodily harm. I’d be really interested in seeing what those standards are.
Do say that the wounds tend to confirm the bashing part. Could you elaborate more?
The fact that Zimmerman occasionally tells the truth doesn’t mean that everything he says is correct. In fact, the best frauds are done when lies are wrapped with some truths. The guy had obvious injuries to his face, why wouldn’t he say that he had been hit? It doesn’t follow that everything else he says is true.
The things which seem like major inconsistencies become important. Was Martin holding his mouth and nose or was GZ able to scream? If they were both struggling, how was Martin able to see the gun down by GZ’s waist? I see the later as a greater issue, as Zimmerman specifically states that Martin saw and reached for the gun, which is why he felt his life was in danger.
Unfortunately, I haven’t see the reenactment video, but it would be interesting to see how someone engaged in an active tussle see the gun. This would be something interesting to attempt to recreate in a rainy night in the darkness.
Really? There isn’t any question that Zimmerman shot Martin. If they ask for an SYG hearing, it has to be shown under the preponderance of evidence that there was reasonable belief that deadly force was necessary. The standard for self defense for manslaughter or second degree murder is even a higher. The State believes there is enough evidence to bring charges, (granted other people believe he was overcharged) and many people are waiting to see what additional evidence is there, including speculation that his texts may be damning. If we can’t tell for sure what happened during the actual fight, then it could be that the additional evidence will tip things against our friend.
I will continue to call it an affirmative defense until I have a good reason not to. The cites I’ve posted all indicate SYG in Florida is an affirmative defense.
Yes, I am perfectly aware that self defense and SYG are not the same thing. My greater point is that this seems to be playing out like a regular self defense case, not a SYG one. Simply for the fact that I’ve not heard O’Mara make one peep about requesting a SYG hearing.
I think people who consider “John” the one witness who helps Zimmerman’s case the best are going be doing some face-palming when that turns out not to be the case.
Folks are fixated on who he saw on top and who he saw on bottom. That’s really not as important as where he saw the scuffle take place relative to where Martin was killed, and most importantly, relative to the T.
If he saw the wrestling occur close to the T (which would make the most sense given that area is near his back door and he wouldn’t have been able to see much if it had been further down), then that means the fight traveled well past the time Zimmerman claims he was sucker punched. This is another massive contradiction with Zimmerman’s narrative.
A traveling fight means that someone was chasing someone else. SYG would not apply to Zimmerman if he was the chaser. Evidence suggests that he was indeed the chaser not Martin. Look at where the conflict ended. Martin had been trying to run home. Who had been chasing Martin earlier that night? Zimmerman. Who had an agenda to let not someone get away? Zimmerman. Most importantly, who showed guilty consciousness by lying about not chasing? Zimmerman.
We can expect the State to put “John” on the stand and have him point to an aerial map where he saw the two guys wrestling. There will be another marker on the map showing where Martin was shot. If my speculation holds true, the discrepant distance will be obvious to the jury.
Other’s testimonies back up GZ’s account. That’s what gives GZ’s account credibility, to the extent that it can be confirmed.
Maybe I am not understanding you. If you are basing all this on the difference between being prone on top of someone, and straddling them, then I do understand you and find it beside the point. It’s not a discrepancy; it’s different ways of describing the same thing.
IOW, the broken nose and black eyes back up Zimmerman’s account of being punched in the face by Martin while both were standing.
This doesn’t make a lot of sense.
You just finished saying that Zimmerman’s account of being punched in the face and knocked down is in accordance with the evidence. You posit (without any evidence) that Martin might have knocked him down hard enough to produce a laceration on the back of his head. You also confirm that Martin bashed Zimmerman’s head at least once more, hard enough to produce another laceration. That doesn’t sound like baby bashes to me.
Unless you believe that every single solitary time Martin bashed Zimmerman’s head against the ground, it necessarily produced another laceration. What is your evidence for such a proposition?
I don’t need to elaborate more. Zimmerman says that Martin bashed his head against the ground. The wounds confirm that.
Well, you are free to assume that everything Zimmerman says is false until proven true. The prosecution does not have that luxury, and your problem is that the parts that are proven true go a long way to showing that Zimmerman is innocent.
Zimmerman claims that Martin sucker-punched him in the face, and there is evidence to show that this is the case. Zimmerman claims that Martin bashed his head on the ground, and there is evidence to show that this is the case. Zimmerman claims that he was screaming for help, and there is evidence to show that this is the case. Zimmerman claims that Martin was on top of him, and there is evidence to show that this is the case.
You, on the other hand, speculate that Zimmerman may have gotten one laceration from being knocked down, but there is no evidence to show that this is the case. There is speculation that Zimmerman approached Martin with gun in hand, but there is no evidence to show that this is the case. There is speculation that Zimmerman restrained Martin, but there is no evidence to show that this is the case.
Maybe the prosecution has more evidence than is known so far. But so far, the evidence backs up Zimmerman. And for most reasonable people, if someone claims A, B, C, X, Y, and Z, and can produce evidence that B, C, X, and Z are all true, that is an indication about A and Y as well. Especially in a court of law.
Incorrect framing of the question. It should read “was Martin holding Zimmerman’s mouth and nose continually and without respite during the entire duration of the struggle, or were there periods during which he let go long enough for Zimmerman to scream?”
Again, the prosecution is going to need to come up with some kind of evidence that it was impossible to spot the gun in Zimmerman’s holster during the struggle. And I wonder how many people not pre-disposed to doubt Zimmerman would find that even unlikely, let alone impossible.
There is other evidence of the fight starting near the T and ending up 50-60 feet down the path: George’s key chain was dropped fairly close to the T, while Martin’s body ended up down the path. Ergo - the struggle/fight/wrestling match started in one area and ended up in quite another.
This pretty much completely contradicts Zimmernan’s initial story of being knocked to the ground and straddled with the first blow.
No they don’t. The wounds confirm GZ’s head bumped into something. GZ says he got the wounds from Martin repeatedly bashing his head into a cement sidewalk. It’s reasonable to question if having your head banged into cement hard enough to ‘feel like your head was going to explode’ would leave more marks/swelling. Suppose GZ had said, “Martin and I got in a scruffle, kind of wrestling. We fell to the ground, we were rolling around trying to gain the upper hand. I know I hit my head a few times on the sidewalk”, would you be able to disprove that theory given the same pictures?
No, you wouldn’t.
Again, no it does not. I agree, it strongly suggest Martin punched Zimmerman, but there is nothing about the evidence that suggests this was a sucker-punch. For all we know, Martin was struggling to get free of a gun-totin’ weirdo trying to detain him.
No there isn’t. There is evidence that -someone- was screaming. There is evidence that strongly suggests it -couldn’t- have been Zimmerman screaming, since a) Zimmerman claims he was being suffocated, yet the screams in the 911 calls are pretty constant in the seconds leading up to the gunshot, and according to GZ, he was being suffocated immediately before Martin went for the gun, and b) the scream stops instantaneously with the gunshot. Someone in such deadly fear for their life that they are screaming animal-like shrieks of primal terror does not stop mis-scream after pulling the trigger, especially when Zimmerman says that a) he didn’t know his shot had hit TM, and b) he thought TM was still possibly armed and dangerous. It’s also odd that mere seconds after the shooting - when he is -still- not sure if his shot had hit TM or not - GZ is cool as a cucumber when bystanders & cops show up. Did he really go from ‘shrieks of mortal terror’ to ‘mr ice-cool neighborhood watch guy’ that fast?
There’s a limited window from the time Zimmerman got off his phone, and the time the first tenant 911 call came in. Hard to believe Zimmerman could outrun Martin.
We don’t know for sure who struck first but the nature of the continued beating constitutes a viscous act. Without GZ’s version to back up the event I would conclude that Martin started it because:
1 - his location suggests he deliberately confronted Zimmerman
2 - he started the verbal exchange
3 - his ability to take Zimmerman down and get on top of him is an indication of a sucker punch.
There’s nothing to suggest that Zimmerman actually followed Martin beyond trying to keep him in sight. His last stated action was to meet the police. There is also nothing by Martin’s actions or words to suggest he was frightened by Zimmerman. He doesn’t know Zimmerman is armed. That idea that he was frightened was suggested by his girlfriend based on his breathing and not by what he said or did. Both Z&M admitted the other was staring at him. It appears there was a mutual case of “stink eye” going on.
You’re correct but we have clues about what was going on. The suggestion that Zimmerman would hold Martin is not logical because he knows the police are on their way. He would be committing a crime and inviting them to arrest him. If he was a vigilante he wouldn’t have called the police. He was doing the right thing. His last communication with the police was an agreement to meet by his truck. His intentions were recorded.
Martin had the same technology in his hand. He did not call the police or enter his house after losing Zimmerman but travels back to the opposite end of the housing complex where Zimmerman is. The only person who can put him there is himself. If you combine his known behavior following this then it seems likely he intended to confront Zimmerman starting with the conversation.
These are observations made without Zimmerman’s account.
I agree with DragonAsh about the importance of Witness 6. If Witness 6 indicates that the scene he saw happened at the “T”, then we’re left with just a couple of explanations about how the fight could have ended where it did.
The two didn’t actually encounter each other at the T.
But then this begs the question of what Zimmerman was doing so far from where he said he was coming from. Not to mention, why would he so grossly underestimate the distance he traveled on that path? And why would his keys be left behind at the T?
The fight traveled down there from its initial starting place. But if we accept Zimmerman’s story as true, this couldn’t have happened because he was incapacitated after that initial blow to the face.
Cite that he was incapacitated from the initial blow. He never said Martin knocked him out. According to his video re-enactment he was sucker punched by Martin and a struggle ensued. Translated, he got his bell rung and struggled to the point where he was taken down. Do you think this requires standing in place?
This was explained to you before. The only injury on Martin apart from the gunshot wound that killed him was a scrape on one knuckle. Zimmerman’s broken nose and black eye suggest, therefore, that it was not an exchange of punches, but a sucker punch assault, consistent with Zimmerman’s account.
That’s part of the problem of debating people like you - you put forth things with no evidence as counters to things that are backed up by evidence. There is no evidence of any sort that suggests that Zimmerman tried to detain Martin, nor any evidence that Zimmerman had his gun out before the incident.
Yes, there is.
As mentioned earlier, you are falsely framing the question. Zimmerman did not allege that Martin suffocated him continuously and consistently throughout the fight. Therefore there is no contradiction with the allegation that Martin attempted to silence or smother Zimmerman at some point(s) in the fight, and that Zimmerman was screaming for help at some point(s) during the fight.
Someone who is screaming for help because he is being beaten does tend to stop screaming when the beating ends.
No, he says he was punched and fell backwards onto the ground. Trayvon got on top of him while he was down, and then started beating and slamming his head.
He never mentions traveling, either being chased by Martin or rolling. You would think he would have done so in either case because both scenarios paint a spectacularly violent picture that would lend credence to his self-defense claim.
Zimmerman said he was punched at the T and fell down shortly thereafter. Even if we allow that he stumbled a little down south before he fell, there’s still a problem.
Witness 6 claims both men were on the ground when he saw them fighting. If this witness says they were on the ground near the T, then the location of Martin’s dead body strongly suggests sometime after this witness spotted them, the fight traveled 50 feet south. There is no getting around this. Zimmerman’s story is not consistent with this evidence. He says that once he landed on his back after being punched, he didn’t get up until the kid was shot. There is no way to square his version of events with the physical evidence or witness accounts.
Ironically, Zimmerman’s reenactment tells us where witness 6 more than likely saw the two of them. He was near the T when he acted out the fight. So we don’t even have to speculate that much about where John will pinpoint the fight he saw.
We already know you are going to dismiss this as minor, but it’s everything but minor.