What the hell do you know about getting beaten? Have you ever, in your entire life, been in a street fight?
to date, nothing Zimmerman did was inconsistent with the story so far.
I’ve not been able to keep up with this case much lately, is there new video that shows a broken nose?
The wounds on the back of the head don’t look serious enough to warrant killing someone in my opinion. The blood amount doesn’t impress me much. Head wounds bleed a lot. Provided those new pictures are real anyway.
I do have doubts about the murder charge though. I’d vote manslaughter with the little I know so far.
So what? That applies for any murder trial. The defense can come up with all kind of theories. Doesn’t mean that their theories will be all that persuasive.
Okay, take Martins size out of it then. The kid was unarmed, Zimmerman was not. To assume their respective behavior wouldn’t have reflected this disparity is far fetched.
Look at the video. His mouth is closed throughout most of the footage.
How likely is it that they are going to claim this, when Zimmermans lawyers had claimed early on the guy had needed stitches but didn’t get them because it was too late. You might imagine them saying something like this, but if they do, the state can easily refute it. All it takes is one EMT to say they dont use glue for dirty head wounds, and Zimmerman didn’t receive that treatment from them. So what would be the point?
Okay, but how believable will those experts likely be?
Okay, so answer me this. Do you think it’s rare to score a murder conviction with the level of evidence that the state has against Zimmerman? What exactly makes this case so difficult to prove relative to other murder cases? What facts have come to light which suggests that the state has an inordinately steep uphill battle to fight? Because I dont see it at all.
I didn’t say his arrests were admissible. That’s why I didn’t factor them in.
And this is appropos of what, exactly?
(No, never been in a fight. Yes, been randomly attacked by a large - 6’3", 300 pound - crazy man with huge fists who punched me in the mouth and split my lip. Four stitches worth of fun.)
The wounds on the back of his head are consistent with being struck against a hard object. In this case, the blood shows trauma to the head which is the real danger. He wasn’t in danger of bleeding to death but he was in danger of brain damage assuming his story is true. And has been so often repeated, the state has to prove his story is false.
Really? Nah, I don’t think so. Unless you can link to the source you have for a witness claiming:
[ul]
[li]the guy on the bottom was beaten up at all[/li][li]beaten up BY the guy on top of him[/li][li]AND that the guy on the bottom was the one screaming for help.[/li][/ul]
(And George Zimmerman is not a source.)
Oops! You’re right. They saw the two men, the heard the cries. But the police were kind enough to correct the witnesses who heard it, wasn’t that helpful of them too straighten people out about what they heard and saw? Gosh, it’s good to know the police are there to keep us on track.
“rumor”? On what basis do you dismiss it as a rumor?
You are KILLING me with this crap. If GZ’s story is true, why not stick to the truth?
You’ve done generally a better job of keeping a more nuanced/dispassionate view of this than most of your compatriots but you really go off the rails here.
A few things:
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No, Zimmerman does not have to claim Martin was on top of him and holding him down to justify his shooting legally. Legal self defense shootings do not require the shooter to be physically touched by the other person, even in non-SYG states.
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I have no idea how you can have no doubt at all about Zimmerman’s statements to the police. That’s like me showing you a black box and telling you I have a baseball card in the box, and you saying you have no doubt at all it is a Babe Ruth card, that’s the height of ridiculousness. You’re asserting you have no doubt at all about something you cannot know, which means you position of no doubt is not based on facts.
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I agree with you Zimmerman’s injuries do not prove much of anything on their own, I think ywtf has been overly focused on them. I think it very likely though, that since we’ve now heard Zimmerman’s attorney discuss a broken nose in court there is a high likelihood of un-ambiguous medical records showing a broken nose.
However, I’ve never felt the issue of the injuries was important. Early on, we had no idea what Zimmerman’s claims were about his injuries, we had just heard second hand information from his father. At that point, the only important issue with the injuries was some people felt the police said that Zimmerman had “injuries consistent with his story” when he was not injured at all (based on a grainy video in a police station.)
The only way I could see the injuries being important, is if Zimmerman had no injuries whatsoever–because that would cast severe doubt on his story as we know it. Since I don’t believe very many rational people will say there were no injuries at all at this point, I think most people should recognize severity of the injuries is essentially irrelevant. Zimmerman’s justification or lack thereof is not based on how injured he was but whether or not he had a reasonable fear for his life or health and safety; legally Zimmerman could have shot Trayvon without a scratch on him and been legally justified. Zimmerman also could have shot Trayvon and himself suffered immense wounds and been legally unjustified. The wounds themselves are demonstrative of anything in the inherent legality of the shooting.
You would never be able to sustain a perjury conviction against someone based on them saying one night on a phone call (right before a traumatic incident) that they saw someone “who appeared in their late teens” and who then later said they thought the person was “only a few years younger than myself.”
Further, it’s plausible that when Zimmerman spoke with the 911 dispatcher, seeing Trayvon from a distance, he thought he was late teens. It’s possible when he pulled the trigger (after potentially getting his ass whipped) he thought Trayvon was older, perhaps early 20s to early-mid 20s (24/25.)
I know that just by talking about a plausible explanation I will be considered acting in Zimmerman’s defense, but I’ll go through the fruitless exercise of saying: I’m not. Zimmerman obviously probably practiced at least parts of his apology before hand to some degree so he may have added things in to try and make his actions seem more sympathetic and may have intentionally fudged things a little bit. But the discrepancy is not significant enough to be able to say, prosecute Zimmerman for lying under oath. And since a jury isn’t empaneled yet (to my knowledge), the statements won’t really matter when it comes to the trial at large.
I ask you because you said you were amazed when Bricker said there is sufficient evidence of self-defense to meet the defense’s burden.
Maybe I misunderstood your meaning but it appears to me that you don’t understand what it’s like to get your head slammed into a solid object. Getting punched in the face hurts. It’s nothing compared to getting your head slammed into concrete. That’s a serious, life threatening event.
So far… SO FAR… Zimmerman’s story is consistent. The major part of this case is whether or not his life was threatened. The rest of the story is window dressing leading up to the event.
It would be nice if there was a video of Zimmerman starting the fight. It would conflict with his story. However, it’s more LOGICAL that he maintained sight of Martin knowing the police were minutes away and continued to pursue him.
It’s more LOGICAL that Martin was insulted by Zimmerman’s challenge when the 2 met up and started a fight. In the absence of this information we’re left with: Zimmerman’s account, physical evidence, and eye witnesses. Right now now, all that lines up with his story.
One reason the injuries could be significant in a trial is to cast doubt on any claim by the prosecution that Zimmerman was in no danger. Another reason is that if it can be shown that Zimmerman was injured and Martin not it will cast doubt on the idea that Zimmerman started the confrontation.
Conversely, if there are no injuries to Zimmerman, it may impair his credibility as a witness.
This information has only been posted a hundred times:
“The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.
John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
“And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.”
Not one person saw Martin screaming for help. Some heard screams for help and claim it was Martin, without ever hearing Martin before the incident.
Link to the evidence.
Sticking to the truth: She and her friend say they heard the sounds from a few steps away, where they were inside beside an open window. Seconds later, they dashed out to find a boy face down on the ground and a man standing over him, a foot on each side of the body on the ground, with his hands pinning the shooting victim down.
Do you want me to link to you the article that says this witness called the police to report a black man standing over a dead man? And if I do, will that convince you as to the reliability (well, lack of such) of this witness?
What hard object?
Yes we can, and we need only his own words (“These assholes always get away”) to do it.
Really? The guy who is going on trial for second degree murder is the guy we can trust to give us the straight story? For god’s sake…
No, we can say it because he referred to “thse assholes”, meaning martin as a member of the “assholes” - do you think he thought Martin was a great guy and asshole was an endearment?
And what was suspicious abotu Martin again? I mean, aside from being a black male in a hoodie, which I understand is inherently suspicious.
No, of course not, if you pretend you never heard the 911 call.
A string bean kid compared to a former fat guy who worked out and got himself in good shape because he wanted to be a hero-cop.
So Martin’s at fault for not running home immediately, thereby giving Zimmerman the opportunity to be the asshole playing hero?
I’m getting really sick of people saying that Zimmerman “had every right” to follow and question Martin as though it is identical in meaning to saying that Zimmerman was not prohibited from doing it. Not really the same thing. And if you doubt it, let’s have you followed and questioned randomly and see if you want to characterize the people doing it as “having every right” to do it. People also have a right to be unmolested when they are innocent of wrongdoing, what about that right?
Not really. Zimmerman’s dad saying it was zimmerman means nothing. Zimmerman saying it was zimmerman means nothing.
But if you think there’s a genuine possibility that it really was Zimmerman, I urge you to take a crack at the prosecution questioning Zimmerman as I did above, show us how Zimmerman answers those questions, how the idea of him screaming for help when he had a gun in his hand makes sense. Please.
And FTR: pretty much everyone who was there and heard it in person, along with experts and everyone else, does not find it remotely credible that the voice in the background is Zimmerman’s. It does not in any rational way square with his version of events, and it does not in any way sound like a 28 year old man, and it for sure doesn’t sound like a 28 year old man holding a gun and getting ready to shoot this boy. What it absolutely DOES sound like is a deeply terrified young man. Like a young man looking at a gun, maybe holding the arm that’s holding the gun, trying to keep it from being aimed at him because he doesn’t want to die.
How anyone could listen to that sound and not be heartsick is beyond my ability to understand.
Not.
What does this mean?
Well Done… and if there’s any justice this world, this is exactly the criteria on which Zimmerman will be judged.
well from all the accounts that would be the sidewalk that runs between the houses. That squares with the witness who said he locked his screen door which would be at the back of the house (condo’s really) and the witness who said she saw people run by. They’re connected condo’s with a common sidewalk in the back.
There is an eyewitness that said the struggle took place entirely on the grass, well away from the sidewalk.
His head wound suggests otherwise. That’s physical evidence.