Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[you_with_the_face]

@Magiver

His head wound suggests otherwise. That’s physical evidence.

It’s not evidence that Martin gave him that wound though.

[Steophan]

@Stoid

Really? The guy who is going on trial for second degree murder is the guy we can trust to give us the straight story? For god’s sake…

Now who’s prejudging someone? Look, Zimmerman’s statement is the single most important piece of evidence. If his story is consistent with the physical evidence, he walks. If it’s not, he goes to prison for a long time. That’s how this will go in practice. Of course, the reason people like you and you with the face want to ignore it is because it is consistent with the evidence we’ve seen so far.

I’m getting really sick of people saying that Zimmerman “had every right” to follow and question Martin as though it is identical in meaning to saying that Zimmerman was not prohibited from doing it. Not really the same thing. And if you doubt it, let’s have you followed and questioned randomly and see if you want to characterize the people doing it as “having every right” to do it. People also have a right to be unmolested when they are innocent of wrongdoing, what about that right?

If you “have me followed” I’ll have you done for harassment, unless you are a law enforcement official with a warrant. If Zimmerman harassed Martin, it’s a crime. If he followed him for a short period of time to ensure the police could find him, and asked him what he was doing in the neighbourhood, he’s done nothing wrong. Not only is it perfectly legal, it’s perfectly fine.

Zimmerman’s dad saying it was zimmerman means nothing. Zimmerman saying it was zimmerman means nothing.

Exactly as much as Martin’s mum saying it was Martin. That was my point…

But if you think there’s a genuine possibility that it really was Zimmerman, I urge you to take a crack at the prosecution questioning Zimmerman as I did above, show us how Zimmerman answers those questions, how the idea of him screaming for help when he had a gun in his hand makes sense. Please.

Zimmerman has claimed that he was in fear of serious injury or death. I think the screaming is quite consistent with that of someone in that state. You are assuming that he had the gun in his hand for some time before he fired it, but you have nothing to base that on - it’s quite possible that he was screaming whilst he tried to push Martin off him for long enough to get his gun and fire.

And FTR: pretty much everyone who was there and heard it in person, along with experts and everyone else, does not find it remotely credible that the voice in the background is Zimmerman’s. It does not in any rational way square with his version of events, and it does not in any way sound like a 28 year old man, and it for sure doesn’t sound like a 28 year old man holding a gun and getting ready to shoot this boy. What it absolutely DOES sound like is a deeply terrified young man. Like a young man looking at a gun, maybe holding the arm that’s holding the gun, trying to keep it from being aimed at him because he doesn’t want to die.

It could just as easily be the sound of a man terrified of the guy on top of him, who’s punching his face and slamming his head into the ground. You know, the guy who had to kill someone because he was in fear of, at minimum, serious injury. The kind that comes from brain damage from having his head pounded into the ground.

How anyone could listen to that sound and not be heartsick is beyond my ability to understand.

Oh, someone was certainly in great fear, and it’s certainly deeply unpleasant to hear. I’m astonished that you think you can tell who it was simply from the screams, when you’ve never heard either of them scream before. I’m even more astonished that you’d pick the one that, according to witnesses, was on top of the other guy, and who had succeeded in injuring the other guy pretty significantly.

It is possible that Zimmerman held Martin at gunpoint, and it was Martin screaming. The only evidence we have for that is Martin’s mother identifying his voice from a low-quality recording - and if you want to ignore Zimmerman’s testimony because of bias, you must surely ignore Martin’s mother’s opinion for the same reason.

[Steophan]

@you_with_the_face

It’s not evidence that Martin gave him that wound though.

No, but the witness who saw the fight with Martin on top is.

[Magiver]

@Fear_Itself

There is an eyewitness that said the struggle took place entirely on the grass, well away from the sidewalk.

according to Martin’s father the police said his son’s body was next to the sidewalk with his feet on the sidewalk.

[Terr]

@Fear_Itself

There is an eyewitness that said the struggle took place entirely on the grass, well away from the sidewalk.

There is no eyewitness that saw the entire struggle.

[Magiver]

@you_with_the_face

It’s not evidence that Martin gave him that wound though.

:rolleyes:

[Stoid]

@Martin_Hyde

You’ve done generally a better job of keeping a more nuanced/dispassionate view of this than most of your compatriots

A sincere thanks for the acknowledgment. Very much appreciated.

Now to the blasting…

but you really go off the rails here.

A few things:

1. No, Zimmerman does not have to claim Martin was on top of him and holding him down to justify his shooting legally. Legal self defense shootings do not require the shooter to be physically touched by the other person, even in non-SYG states.

My point was and is: let’s say Martin punches Zim, knocks him down. Gets on top and punches again. Zim manages to push him off and stand up, or even get to his knees and pull his gun. He is not restrained, he can get up and walk or run, he is not facing a weapon, he has a deadly weapon out and ready. He is no longer in need of defending himself by shooting because he can threaten Martin, he can walk away, he can run away, he can hit Martin with the gun, hell, he can shoot martin in the knee. But what he actually does is shoot Martin in the chest.

In order to be self-defense he has to be facing an immediate threat. Which is why the injuries don’t mean much. They certainly do not prove that at the moment Zimmerman pulled the trigger he was actually being attacked and had no alternative. They merely suggest that there was an altercation and martin got a couple good ones in. It says nothing about the moment when Zimmerman actually killed Martin and if you genuinely believe it does, then you, too, please go back to my prosecution scene and do it differently. Make it make sense. Pretend to be pinning Zimmerman to the wall and tell us the answers you think are reasonable and believable. Seriously. I may be blind to it so show me because with what we have so far I simply cannot see how those pieces fit.

2. I have no idea how you can have no doubt at all about Zimmerman’s statements to the police. That’s like me showing you a black box and telling you I have a baseball card in the box, and you saying you have no doubt at all it is a Babe Ruth card, that’s the height of ridiculousness. You’re asserting you have no doubt at all about something you cannot know, which means you position of no doubt is not based on facts.

This is about the head on the concrete, right? I am not coming from gut feelings, I’m talking about the evidence. Zimmerman’s wet shirt and grass, Martin’s position, the timing. Did you review the timeline breakdown that someone posted that was written by a woman named Susan?It was in the closed thread towards the end. It was like she was in my head…read that and you will understand why I do not believe for a second that Martin was bashing Zimmerman’s head into concrete at any time, much less at the moment Zimmerman pulled the trigger. I very much doubt he was bashing his head into soft, wet earth, but if he was bashing his head into anything at all, that’s what it was.

Zimmerman’s justification or lack thereof is not based on how injured he was but whether or not he had a reasonable fear for his life or health and safety;

YES…AT THE MOMENT HE ACTED. (Also my earlier breakdown of all that was directly related to the issue of Zimmerman being the aggressor - Bricker agreed that my example woman scenario would show the woman entitled to attack the man… transfer that to Martin attacking Zimmerman, which he would be entitled to do. That would make Zimmerman the aggressor, and others would immediately rush to point out that he still has the right to claim self defense if he feared for his life, which makes ME rush to point out that he has to show that he exhausted all the alternatives before going for the killshot. If his arm was free and had a gun in it, I think right then and there he’s got alternatives that he obviously failed to exhaust before killing Martin…hence he’s the aggressor, hence he doesnt’ get to claim self-defense, hence my prosecution script.)

@Magiver

I Getting punched in the face hurts.

Actually it didn’t. Blood spurting everywhere I didn’t feel any pain at all, I was stunned and my lips felt numb. It didnt’ hurt until after the novacaine wore off after the stitches. THEN it hurt.

It’s nothing compared to getting your head slammed into concrete.That’s a serious, life threatening event.

I agree. And the evidence says it never happened.

@Terr

Do you want me to link to you the article that says this witness called the police to report a black man standing over a dead man? And if I do, will that convince you as to the reliability (well, lack of such) of this witness?

I’m very familiar. First, I was laying out all the various statements, you were the one who felt the need to try and discredit them individually. Having made such an effort, I hope you are intellectually honest about it and recognize that your favorite witness is the ONLY one who says it was Zimmerman, and he didn’t show up until later?

I think we should all know by now that eyewitness testimony has been proven to be extremely imperfect. So to the extent we must rely on it, we need to consider many other factors in conjunction with it, no matter who it appears to favor. Does the physical evidence match? How many people seem to be in agreement? Etc.

[Fear_Itself]

@Magiver

His head wound suggests otherwise. That’s physical evidence.

I saw blood on his head. I still don’t know whose blood it is.

[Terr]

@Stoid

I’m very familiar. First, I was laying out all the various statements, you were the one who felt the need to try and discredit them individually. Having made such an effort, I hope you are intellectually honest about it and recognize that your favorite witness is the ONLY one who says it was Zimmerman, and he didn’t show up until later?

And you’re wrong yet again. He didn’t “show up until later”. He talked to the press “later” (that is, the day after the incident). He reported his eyewitness account to the authorities immediately. From the article published the day after the incident: “A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.”

And yes, he’s the only one reporting Martin on top of Zimmerman. That’s one more eyewitness than the zero that report seeing Zimmerman sitting on top of Martin beating him up.

And if you’re “very familiar” with the obviously wrong testimony that Cutcher gave the police, why are you citing her as a witness in your list?

[Magiver]

@Fear_Itself

I saw blood on his head. I still don’t know whose blood it is.

It’s clear from the picture it’s coming from a wound and the police report notated his injuries.

[Fear_Itself]

@Magiver

It’s clear from the picture it’s coming from a wound and the police report notated his injuries.

It is not clear. This is not settled fact.

[Magiver]

@Terr

And you’re wrong yet again. He didn’t “show up until later”. He talked to the press “later” (that is, the day after the incident). He reported his eyewitness account to the authorities immediately. From the article published the day after the incident: “A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities.”

And yes, he’s the only one reporting Martin on top of Zimmerman. That’s one more eyewitness than the zero that report seeing Zimmerman sitting on top of Martin beating him up.

O…K… we have a witness that saw Martin on top. You need a stadium of witnesses to make it statistically relevant? The guy who saw this was standing at his back door because he locked it. Unless you can refute what he said it’s consistent with Zimmerman’s story and consistent with his injuries which the police noted and eye witnessed verified the following day (facial bruising).

What changes in court when it’s up to the State to refute the evidence available?

[Magiver]

@Fear_Itself

It is not clear. This is not settled fact.

yes it is.

[Fear_Itself]

@Magiver

O…K… we have a witness that saw Martin on top.

But it is the same witness who said they were on the grass, not near the sidewalk! Why is part of his account unassailable, but you conveniently discount the part that conflicts with your preconceived conclusion?

[Terr]

@Magiver

O…K… we have a witness that saw Martin on top. You need a stadium of witnesses to make it statistically relevant?

You missed something. I said there is a witness that says Martin was on top beating up Zimmerman. I also said there are **zero **witnesses that say Zimmerman was on top beating up Martin. One is greater than zero.

[Fear_Itself]

@Magiver

yes it is.

There are no settled facts.

[Bricker]

@Fear_Itself

It is not clear. This is not settled fact.

What else, apart from Zimmerman having a wounded head, explains the various pieces of evidence that suggest his head was wounded?

[Terr]

@Fear_Itself

But it is the same witness who said they were on the grass, not near the sidewalk!

Can you quote the witness’s statement that would support “not near the sidewalk” part?

[Stoid]

@Magiver

well from all the accounts that would be the sidewalk that runs between the houses. That squares with the witness who said he locked his screen door which would be at the back of the house (condo’s really) and the witness who said she saw people run by. They’re connected condo’s with a common sidewalk in the back.

@Fear_Itself

There is an eyewitness that said the struggle took place entirely on the grass, well away from the sidewalk.

@Magiver

His head wound suggests otherwise. That’s physical evidence.

No. If the picture is him, it shows a wound, not a wound that suggests he had his head bashed into th sidewalk. (In fact the picture suggests a cut, since it appears to be a straigh line running orizontally across the back of his head).

However you did point out part of the evidence that makes it highly unlikely to impossible that Martin was bashing Zim’s head on cement, and that’s Martin’s body on the grass, his legs extending to the sidewalk.

Combine that with Zimmerman’s wet back with grass on it, the very narrow timeline, and the body positions, and it’s pretty much impossible to imagine how in the world martin could possibly have been bashing Zimmerman’s head against concrete.

I found the analysis I referred to- some interesting bits:

The crime scene does not support Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon was pounding his head into the sidewalk. Trayvon was unarmed. Perhaps to make up for this fact, Zimmerman’s claim for why he was in imminent fear of death or grave bodily harm — and therefore why Zimmerman was allowed to kill Trayvon in self-defense — is that Trayvon was pounding his head into the concrete sidewalk. Although there is a sidewalk running through the middle of where the shooting occurred, the claim that Zimmerman’s head was being bashed into it does not make sense, because: (1) Zimmerman’s back had grass on it. Assuming that Zimmerman and Trayvon encountered each other while on the sidewalk, how could Zimmerman have fallen so that his legs and back were off the sidewalk, while his head was still on it? (2) Zimmerman was a bouncer for illegal house parties; during the course of a 1 minute long fight with a kid thirty pounds lighter than him, there is no possible explanation for how Zimmerman was able to move enough to get his back and legs onto grass, but not his head. In order to pound someone’s head into the ground while they are pinned down, you would literally have to pull their head up with one hand and before shoving it down again — and a one-armed pin is far easier to break. If you are pinning someone down with both arms, there is no way for you to repeatedly slam their head down, short of physically picking them up by the shoulders (while you’re sitting on their waist). (3) Trayvon’s body was found face down in the grass, with his arms underneath him. According to his father, Trayvon’s legs were on the sidewalk, while his head and torso were perpendicular to the sidewalk, on the grass. If Trayvon was shot in the chest while pinning/punching Zimmerman on the ground, his body would presumably have crumpled down to where it was found — which was in the grass, and not on the sidewalk. If Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned, face to face, how did his head ultimately come to be far away from the sidewalk, if just before he was shot he was pounding Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk?

Voice analysis of the first 911 call will be the single most important factor in this case. Listening to the first 911 call, it is painfully clear that whoever can be heard shouting for help is in imminent fear for their life. This isn’t the scream of someone in a wrestling match — it’s the wild, animal panic of someone who believes that they are about to die. If the voice shouting “help” is in fact Zimmerman’s, then, whether or not such a fear was objectively reasonable, his subjective fear that Trayvon was about to kill him would appear to be entirely genuine.
However, if the voice is in fact Zimmerman’s, then it also shows that Zimmerman was in control enough of the fight to have the breath to scream and plead for help, and that his shouts for “help” were not cut off by Trayvon “slamming” his head into the sidewalk. It is not the scream of someone “nearly unconscious,” as Zimmerman’s brother and father have alleged. And, whether it was Trayvon or Zimmerman screaming, the mere existence of the screams is inconsistent with the verbal exchange between the two as recounted by Zimmerman. No one is yelling “time to die” or “you got me” — they are yelling “help,” and nothing else.

According to him, Zimmerman’s statement to police was that after losing track of Trayvon, Zimmerman “went around a townhouse to see where he was.” This supports two things: first, that Zimmerman was actively hunting for Trayvon at the time of the altercation, and second, that Zimmerman was *not *following the sidewalk routes, but ducking through gaps in houses. This is possible support for the theory that Zimmerman unexpectedly cut off Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk routes. It also puts the “Trayvon was in hiding waiting to attack Zimmerman” theory in doubt, because it’s not clear how Trayvon’s could have anticipated Zimmerman’s unusual path.

Finally, the last new information from the Daily Beast’s source is that “Zimmerman told police he didn’t realize that Martin was seriously injured, and that he lunged to get on top of him after the teenager fell to the ground.” This would seem to match one of the 911 caller’s statements to the 911 dispatcher which, although confused, reported seeing Zimmerman on top of Trayvon after the shooting. Although it should have been obvious that a point blank shot to the chest with a hollow point bullet is going to be a serious wound all of the time and a fatal wound most of the time, it is believable that, with the adrenaline pumping, Zimmerman wasn’t thinking clearly. However, this is also another indication that Zimmerman’s subjective interpretation of events should be treated with cautious skepticism — Zimmerman was plainly not thinking completely logically or coherently, if he thought the bullet to the chest was not a “serious injury.” The fact Zimmerman thought it necessary to try and restrain Trayvon and “lunge to get on top of him” after shooting the kid in the chest shows Zimmerman’s threat detection systems were on overload,

@Steophan

Now who’s prejudging someone?

ABSOLUTELY! I do not look to the killer for an unbiased report, no matter who he is.

Look, Zimmerman’s statement is the single most important piece of evidence. If his story is consistent with the physical evidence, he walks.

Then he ain’t walkin’, cuz it’s not.

Exactly as much as Martin’s mum saying it was Martin. That was my point…

Except that I didn’t counter with his mother saying it was Martin, so don’t make it seem as though I did.

t could just as easily be the sound of a man terrified of the guy on top of him, who’s punching his face and slamming his head into the ground. You know, the guy who had to kill someone because he was in fear of, at minimum, serious injury. The kind that comes from brain damage from having his head pounded into the ground.

If you want to suspend your good thinkin’ brain, then maybe so.But I’m all about what makes sense in light of all the facts, and it ain’t Geroge Zimmerman’s story.

[Magiver]

@Fear_Itself

But it is the same witness who said they were on the grass, not near the sidewalk! Why is part of his account unassailable, but you conveniently discount the part that conflicts with your preconceived conclusion?

head on sidewalk, body on grass. Per Martin’s father’s recount of what the police said Martin’s body was astride the sidewalk.