Whether Martin was actually next to his house or hiding somewhere between the top of the T he had to have doubled back and there is only one reason for him to do that and that’s to confront Zimmerman. If he was hiding nearby he would have heard the conversation and known Zimmerman called the cops on him. Given Dee Dee’s account (as the most argument friendly to Martin’s side of the argument) Martin would have been presented with a challenge for being in the neighborhood. This, IMO, was the trigger for the fight.
Here’s the problem with your position. I can go places and hear things that wouldn’t be said in your presence. You can only guess. The social changes that have occurred in the last half of the 20th century are substantial. It doesn’t mean there aren’t people with racial issues. It means they are the odd man out.
I don’t see how that really has much, if anything, to do with what I said. In fact, I said much the opposite of that. I’m saying that we should accept that everybody makes, and is influenced by, generalizations made about other people based on their race. If that is your definition of ‘racism’, then we are all racists and should just admit it. I admit it. You are the one that seems to be in “denial”.
I absolutely have made, and am influenced by, generalizations about black people. I’ll make your day even further. When I first heard the media accounts that Trayvon Martin was a 17 year old black male who was mild-mannered, respectful, well-behaved, and in excellent academic standing? I was more than a bit skeptical- and that’s an understatement. You, and many others, will label that racism at its worst.
To this I say.. for you to ask me to not feel the skepticism I did, is for you to ask me to not only play dumb, but to deny my own personal experiences. If that makes me a racist, then, well, so be it, but I won’t deny reality as I perceive it because it doesn’t jive with your idea of racial harmony. And that’s precisely how I feel about it.
The sad thing, in a way, is that my instincts about young black males were only reinforced further. I will only be a little more skeptical next time. And I don’t feel the least bit guilty about it. People can’t help but notice patterns and correlations. People can’t help but make, and be influenced by, generalizations based on identifiable characteristics. This includes, but is not limited to race. I define racism as someone who unduly influenced by a generalization based on race.
I don’t believe that I am. Even if I have a strong expectation about a person, I give everyone a chance to defy my expectations. That included Trayvon. That includes you. An actual racist won’t give someone the benefit of the doubt. Their mind is made up. I don’t hate black people. Personally, I would love to see black people, in general, overcome a lot of the problems that plague their communities. Would love to see it. Would love to see young, decent, black men succeed. I’d bend over backwards for one if given the opportunity.
And yes, I did vote for Obama, dated a black girl, believe in some forms of affirmative action, believe in some forms of reparations, believe the United States needs to build a major memorial re: slavery, etc. But I realize it’s probably pointless to say such things. After all, I never went into business with a black man, never protested on behalf of a black man, I never mentored black children, etc. I don’t have 1/100th of the “I’m obviously not a racist!” credentials that Zimmerman has, and most black people think he’s a racist. (Which also ended up reinforcing another generalization about blacks.)
So there ya go. I bet I made your day. But one of us ought to try to live up to your nickname.
“They do it too” does not make your actions or beliefs acceptable, especially when you are simply mirroring the views you claim to hate, and that you claim so degrade you..
Why are you more likely to believe the account of someone who didn’t even contact the police until several weeks after the incident, and then only after being coached by the Martin’s lawyer, than someone who was actually there? I can understand doubting Zimmerman - but to then believe uncritically DeeDee’s story is absurd.
Also, no, you don’t get to take into account Zimmerman’s past history when judging his truthfulness here, you get to take into account the other evidence. Which basically supports his story.
Profiling someone because they fit the description of a criminal is always acceptable. Acting only because they fit that description is not.
Look, in this case, young black men had been burgling houses in the area. i don’t care if you dislike that fact, it remains a fact. Trayvon Martin was a young black man, in a private, gated community that he was not resident in, walking slowly in the rain, looking at the houses around him. Zimmerman was absolutely right to be suspicious, and to call the police. He was stupid to follow him, admittedly, but that’s because it’s stupid to put oneself at risk from a suspected criminal. As it turned out, he was at risk of a beating, and for his own safety shouldn’t have followed him. It’s fortunate he was able to stop the beating before it became even more serious.
Why would Martin even hide? He certainly wasn’t scared when he was brave enough to walk up to Zimmerman’s car. And what was Zimmerman doling that caused Martin to bolt? Zimmerman was just talking on his cellphone.
Where exactly are you suggesting he was hiding? There was no cover along the walkway at the top of the T and Zimmerman did have a flashlight. Any hiding place further south would involve doubling back. I already suggested he was sitting on a porch. All the plausible hiding places are south of the T. I think sitting on a porch is more plausible than lurking in bushes in the rain.
I would also like to point out that having Martin hide close to Zimmerman is implausible since Zimmerman would have heard him talking to DeeDee. Also if Martin could hear Zimmerman talking to the police, then waiting for Zimmerman to hang up leads to rather unfavorable implications about Martin’s motives.
There’s a huge difference between approaching a car and approaching a person. Te car creates a subjective barrier that isolates the interaction.
In any event, if we’re discussing the general need to reform the law, and looking to this case only for illustrative value, then why would you ask this question? Isn’t it enough to say it’s plausible that Martin hid? In this context, I shouldn’t have to convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that a particular event happened, right?
First of all, there hasn’t been a great deal of harping about this. It was part of the point I was making about character assassination. This thread has been focused on Zimmerman and not Martin despite the fact Martin’s behavior was the driving force behind the shooting.
Secondly, I’m not buying the “everybody else does it” line. Nobody I went to school with used race like Martin did. While I’m sure the phenomenon isn’t rare that doesn’t place it in a positive light.
I don’t see difference a car makes as a subjective barrier. It’s either a barrier or it’s not. If it’s running it gives the occupant an exit but if it’s not it’s a trap.
And I’m not seeing your point about Martin’s location. I missed something in this conversation. Let’s conclude that Martin is hiding in the bushes in the 1st house South East of Zimmerman’s position. This puts him in line with Z’s account of approaching him diagonally.
You mean Martin went East to Retreat View Circle? It is possible, but having Martin follow Zimmerman back to the T to confront him sounds for more damaging than my scenario.
If Martin was sitting on a porch, then he could seen Zimmerman and spontaneously decided to talk to him. Following Zimmerman makes it sound like a planned confrontation.
possible but not likely. If he walked to the street then he would have walked home from the street and not back toward the direction and person he ran from. According to Zimmerman he walked to the end of the sidewalk and would have seen Martin walking down the street or anywhere along the path.
immediacy of a confrontation? . I acknowledge the car acts as some kind of social barrier. I missed the point of this conversation and don’t understand where you’re going with it. It’s confrontational to approach someone in a car and stare at them but not face to face and……… something…….. and the SYG law?
If I can summarize your position, the person with a gun feels more empowered to move through society in less fear of harm but should not do so because it endangers those who would cause the harm?
I want to stress that my experiences isn’t simply a narrow slice from the Internet but from my experiences as whole: the only black person in classes (I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been called in for “cheating” or “plagiarizing”; In undergrad, I was outright told by a classmate that I “stole” her friend’s seat who was denied admission), during research in the laboratory (I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been indirectly and directly accused of stealing reagents/sabotaging other people’s experiments, have had campus police called on me numerous times when I belonged there), and my job where the list is down-right exhaustive and ranges between unequal pay to disparaging comments about black students. Each and every time these things occur, I do not act ghetto or use it as a source of conflict; rather, I quietly share my experiences with my personal support network that consist of non-white friends (mostly) and family. I rarely share experiences with racism with white people because, generally, white people don’t believe in racism unless it involves rope, a tree, an angry mob, and a burning cross. That’s a slight exaggeration but it’s not far off the mark.
Not to pull a rural-suburban on you, but I bet my bottom dollar I have more white friends than you have black friends. I’ll even go further and bet I have more healthy, enduring relationships with white people than you do with any racial group excluding your own. The reason it’s convenient to label me a racist is because it’s vogue to label blacks who speak up as using the “race card”. This is used specifically to diminish the complaint and to denigrate the person speaking up. It’s a cruel but effective piece of mental gymnastics. I know you’d like to steer me to another, more convenient conclusion but I ain’t stupid. For what it’s worth, I agree to disagree and hope you feel the same. I don’t give much credence to your personal experiences, in turn, you don’t give much weight to my personal experiences. Someone here just posted that racial profiling isn’t racism. That’s when it’s obvious we’re at an impasse when discussing race in this thread.
You seem to be turned around. If Martin had intended to return to Brandy Green’s house he would have walked down Retreat View Circle to the front entrance of Green’s house.
Since I don’t know you it’s tough to comment on your experiences which I’m not going to discount them. I don’t know where the chicken and the egg is in all of this but if you’re going through life with your racial perceptions I would posit the idea that it’s projecting into your life and affects those around you. There is also a rather large elephant following you around that you should object strongly to. It’s the current practice of lowering standards in schools and jobs as a method of bringing in minorities. It’s been discussed in threads before and this isn’t the place to hash it out but it affects how people perceive your achievements. We just went through this in my city where testing standards were lowered repeatedly to bring in more minority police and fire fighters. It did not sit well with local black leaders or black applicants. It certainly doesn’t sit well with other minorities or majorities. This follows you around at no fault of your own.
Of that I have no doubt. Statistically you’re education and job pull you into the mainstream world and away from what you described as a humble (and I’m guessing less diverse) background. My friendships go all the way back to grade school and are very enduring. I hope your’s are too.
Actually I labeled your views as bigoted. I don’t think you think you are of a superior race (the definition of racist). I don’t think you’re a bad person. I do think you’re perceptions of society are off the mark enough that it affects this thread. I don’t think you’re applying logic correctly based on the evidence. You’re attack on people who agreed with Bricker was WAAAAAAAY out of line. You were literally poking people in the chest electronically daring them to turn you in. You’re still talking about it so I touched a nerve. I don’t think you’re a racist. How about we drop this thread within a thread and argue the subject going forward based on the evidence.
this is the point I made earlier. regardless of where Martin was, the fight location indicated that he approached Zimmerman and the conversation shows that he started the interaction.