Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[you_with_the_face]

@Honesty

That’s interesting. Do you have a cite on that? I’ve been trying to find the actual document that prosecutors released this week but have only found second-hand sources of information.

• Honesty

You can find this in the latest doc dump: http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/2012/09/GZ-part5-Gorgone-FDLE-complete-report-0919.pdf.

In summary, two of Marvin’s garments were tested. His infamous hoodie (ME 12) and the long sleeve shirt he was wearing underneath the hoodie (ME 8).

None of Zimmerman’s DNA was found on the hoodie.

But the shirt under the hoodie was contaminated with Zimmerman’s blood/DNA.

This gets even curiouser when you consider that the gunshot holes in the hoodie and sweatshirt line up with one another, but neither match up with his chest wound.

[emeraldia]

@you_with_the_face

It’s not in doubt that Zimmerman pointed his gun at the kid, as he wouldn’t have been shot otherwise.

He didn’t have his gun pointed at him for a sustained length of time that might plausibly explain how it could have been Trayvon screaming.

[BlankSlate]

You guess.

[you_with_the_face]

@emeraldia

He didn’t have his gun pointed at him for a sustained length of time that might plausibly explain how it could have been Trayvon screaming.

So lemme get this straight.

The absence of Martin’s DNA on Zimmerman’s gun leads you to conclude that Zimmerman didn’t hold the kid at gunpoint for a long length of time because…what? Is there some kind of rule that a person held a gunpoint longer than 30 sec has to touch the gun or else it didn’t happen? That’s news to me, but okay.

By this logic, though, I really have to wonder how your mind procresses the absence of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin’s hoodie and hands. If you’re going to be logically consistent, you need to conclude that the kid never grabbed his bleeding head and banged into the ground. The forensics don’t back this up one iota. His hands should have been covered in the man’s genetic material but they were pristine.

[hmarvin]

@you_with_the_face

You can find this in the latest doc dump: http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/2012/09/GZ-part5-Gorgone-FDLE-complete-report-0919.pdf.

In summary, two of Marvin’s garments were tested. His infamous hoodie (ME 12) and the long sleeve shirt he was wearing underneath the hoodie (ME 8).

None of Zimmerman’s DNA was found on the hoodie.

But the shirt under the hoodie was contaminated with Zimmerman’s blood/DNA.

This gets even curiouser when you consider that the gunshot holes in the hoodie and sweatshirt line up with one another, but neither match up with his chest wound.

It’s easy enough to see why Zimmerman’s blood/DNA would be on the shirt, since Trayvon’s hands were found under his body. Before he died, Trayvon could have reached under his hiked up hoodie and shirt to check out his wound, though why none was found on Trayvon’s hands would be harder to explain. Perhaps the wetness of the environment that evening, while they tried to revive Martin was a factor. In a fight your clothes aren;t going to be neatly arranged.

[emeraldia]

@you_with_the_face

So lemme get this straight.

The absence of Martin’s DNA on Zimmerman’s gun leads you to conclude that Zimmerman didn’t hold the kid at gunpoint for a long length of time because…what? Is there some kind of rule that a person held a gunpoint longer than 30 sec has to touch the gun or else it didn’t happen?

Basically yes. There would have been some struggle for the gun. That’s what happens when you are in a physical altercation with a man with a gun. Unfortunately, all of Zimmerman’s injuries are on Zimmerman’s head, and there are none of Trayvon’s fingerprints, DNA, or blood, etc. on the gun.

By this logic, though, I really have to wonder how your mind processes the absence of Zimmerman’s blood on Martin’s hoodie and hands. If you’re going to be logically consistent, you need to conclude that the kid never grabbed his bleeding head and banged into the ground. The forensics don’t back this up one iota. His hands should have been covered in the man’s genetic material but they were pristine.

The exact locations that Zimmerman’s blood was found/not found on Trayvon are of interest to me. Some of them seem counter-intuitive. I would expect there to be some of Zimmerman’s blood on Trayvon’s hands/knuckles, wrists, etc.

But Zimmerman’s blood was indeed found on Trayvon. And Zimmerman’s head was indeed bloody with a likely fractured nose, and lacerations on the back of his head. I would imagine that “No Limit Nigga” had something to do with those injuries, Z’s blood on his hands or not.

Although there is one thing apparently inconsistent with Zimmerman’s account, there are several others that are. Whereas, in the case of Zimmerman holding Trayvon at gunpoint, there is virtually nothing consistent with it.

[Magiver]

@Honesty

How does what I think have any bearing on if Trayvon Martin was insulted or not?

• Honesty

Just giving the situation a perspective from your point of view of the world.

[DragonAsh]

@hmarvin

He couldn’t plausibly have known Martin was around.

Really? He assumed Martin was around, because he didn’t want to say his address out loud over the phone.

@hmarvin

Martin had picked up the larger flashlight and was pounding Zimmerman with it

The condition of the flashlight and GZ’s head make this rather unlikely…

@Shodan

The police were already on their way, and Zimmerman was fully aware of that - he was the one who contacted them in the first place. I don’t think another call to 911 was going to get an ambulance there any faster. How many seconds elapsed between the shooting and the arrival of the authorities?

He didn’t call for an ambulance…he didn’t call 911, remember? He just called the dispatch. You know, some guys roll out in a squad car, and ‘they’d call GZ when they got to the compound’. As far as GZ was concerned, no ambulance was on the way.

@Shodan

But, someone attacks you, beats the shit out of your face, tackles you, and beats your head on the ground. So you shoot him, roll him off you, and check him for weapons to make sure he still doesn’t have the chance to kill you.

The problem with your scenario: *George says he didn’t think he had shot Martin. *So this ‘effin’ punk’, that according to George, had spent the last minute or so punching him in the face, slamming his head into a concrete sidewalk, and trying to take his gun, is still just sitting there on top of you - yet the very instant he pulls the trigger, George stops screaming, even though there has been on change in the immediate threat?

‘What was there to scream about’, indeed.

[hmarvin]

@DragonAsh

Really? He assumed Martin was around, because he didn’t want to say his address out loud over the phone.

The condition of the flashlight and GZ’s head make this rather unlikely…

,

He didn’t call for an ambulance…he didn’t call 911, remember? He just called the dispatch. You know, some guys roll out in a squad car, and ‘they’d call GZ when they got to the compound’. As far as GZ was concerned, no ambulance was on the way.

The problem with your scenario: *George says he didn’t think he had shot Martin. *So this ‘effin’ punk’, that according to George, had spent the last minute or so punching him in the face, slamming his head into a concrete sidewalk, and trying to take his gun, is still just sitting there on top of you - yet the very instant he pulls the trigger, George stops screaming, even though there has been on change in the immediate threat?

‘What was there to scream about’, indeed.

In prior 911 calls Zimmerman, if you listen to them, states pretty much the same thing, he doesn’t know where the person running is at. You’d stop screaming too, if someone stopped pounding on you. If you listen to the dispatch call, after Zimmerman catches his breath, you can hear clicking, and something being pounded, while he’s talking on the phone, in a conversational tone of voice. This would appear to imply that from the time his breathing slowed down to normal, to the time he ended the phone call, he wasn’t moving at all, just clicking his flashlight, pounding it on something, and talking to the dispatcher, for over a minute. How do you follow someone standing in one place? If that was his intention, why would Zimmerman even try to catch him on foot? All he would have had to do is gun his pickup south, get out before Trayvon got there, to confront him. You can’t outrun someone with a head start, but you can get to the south end in a vehicle faster, before jumping out, and going along the short east path.

[DragonAsh]

@hmarvin

You’d stop screaming too, if someone stopped pounding on you.

Sure - after a few seconds had passed and I was fully aware the danger was well and truly pass.

That’s not the case here - the kid that GZ says had been slamming his head into concrete, had threatened him with death by telling him, ‘you die tonight motherfucker’, the kid that had been bashing his head into concrete, was *still on top of him, *and George says he didn’t think his shot had hit TM. And yet the very *instant *that he pulls the trigger, George says he stopped screaming. That’s amazingly calm-headed and aware for someone that says he ‘felt like his head was going to explode’, that ‘he was going to pass out’. Such amazing sense of awareness of what was going on around him.

@hmarvin

This would appear to imply that from the time his breathing slowed down to normal, to the time he ended the phone call, he wasn’t moving at all, just clicking his flashlight, pounding it on something, and talking to the dispatcher, for over a minute.

Not moving at all? But I thought he was out of his truck specifically to ‘find a street sign’ (in the middle of the walk-through :rolleyes:).

@hmarvin

All he would have had to do is **gun **his pickup south, get out before Trayvon got there, to confront him. You can’t outrun someone with a head start, but you can get to the south end in a vehicle faster, before jumping out, and going along the short east path.

:smack: Why did he get out of the car, indeed…

‘gun his car’. Nice…coincidence, I’m sure…

[Shodan]

@DragonAsh

He didn’t call for an ambulance…he didn’t call 911, remember?

Don’t be ridiculous - of course he called 911. We have the transcripts.

He just called the dispatch. You know, some guys roll out in a squad car, and ‘they’d call GZ when they got to the compound’.

And that’s how he knew the police were on the way.

And the police arrived a few seconds later. And they called an ambulance. So another call to 911 by Zimmerman was not necessary.

*George says he didn’t think he had shot Martin. *

So, if Zimmerman did not immediately see that he had shot Martin, then he had no reason to summon an ambulance. And by the time (a few seconds later), when Zimmerman recognized that he had shot Martin, the police were on the scene almost at once.

Regards,
Shodan

[you_with_the_face]

@Shodan

Don’t be ridiculous - of course he called 911. We have the transcripts.

He didn’t call 911; he called the nonemergency line.

The witnesses are the ones who called 911.

According to Zimmerman, at least twice he instructed people not to call 911. The first time was when he was talking to “Jon”. The second time was allegedly when he was talking to the first witness on the scene post-shooting.

He had no reason to assume an ambulance was on its way.

[you_with_the_face]

@Shodan

So, if Zimmerman did not immediately see that he had shot Martin, then he had no reason to summon an ambulance.

Of course there is, if his account is true. He’d supposedly been beaten so severely that he had to kill or risk being killed. Supposedly he had his nose broken and his face punched a dozen times and violently head thrown against cement. And you think he had no reason to summon an ambulance?

It’s stupid to argue, on one hand, that he no reason to summon an ambulance after being visciously beaten by a maniacal thug, while also arguing that he was justified in using lethal force in response this viscious attack by a maniacal thug. Pick one position or the other. Arguing both is crazy.

[Shodan]

@you_with_the_face

According to Zimmerman, at least twice he instructed people not to call 911. The first time was when he was talking to “Jon”. The second time was allegedly when he was talking to the first witness on the scene post-shooting.

Because he was perfectly well aware that the police were on their way. And they arrived a couple of seconds later.

In the first instance, he asked “Jon” not to call 911, but rather to come to his assistance because Martin was attacking him. This is because Zimmerman knew the police were on their way, and no purpose would have been served in calling them again. Zimmerman’s more immediate need was for assistance to defend himself against Martin’s attack.

In the second instance, again, Zimmerman was perfectly well aware that the police were on their way, and no purpose would have been served in calling them again. And it would be only after Zimmerman recognized that Martin had been shot that an ambulance would have been necessary - and by that time, the police were already on the scene, or were within a few seconds of arriving.

Supposedly he had his nose broken and his face punched a dozen times and violently head thrown against cement. And you think he had no reason to summon an ambulance?

He talks about this - the reason he gives for not wanting an ambulance for himself is because of the high cost of health care. Although no doubt the aftermath of being beaten may have had something to do with it as well.

Regards,
Shodan

[Jack_Batty]

“Oh my god. I’ve just gotten the shit kicked out of me. My nose is broken. My head feels like it’s about to explode. I should probably go to the hospital … but you know, it’s so darned expensive these days.”
Right. That dog won’t hunt.

[BlankSlate]

“I swear I didn’t know I had shot him, I thought he was taking a nap”

[you_with_the_face]

@Shodan

And it would be only after Zimmerman recognized that Martin had been shot that an ambulance would have been necessary - and by that time, the police were already on the scene, or were within a few seconds of arriving.

I still find it hilarious that yall see nothing wrong with Zimmerman flinging himself on top of Martin just as soon as the kid retreated from him.

You keep insisting that he initially thought the kid was unscathed, seemingly not realizing what this reveals about his likely state of mind during the entire span of the fight. If he jumped on top of Martin even though the kid had “given up” on his own volition, that suggests Zimmerman would have never given Martin the opportunity to remove himself from conflict. His own behavior demonstrates as soon as Martin conceeded his ground, Zimmerman wasn’t satisfied until he physically dominated him.

Thus, no matter what the kid chose to do, he’d always have a 200 lbs man trying to tackle and restrain him. This is even more obvious if we accept Zimmerman’s claim that he didn’t recognize he’d shot the kid.

This has losing case written all over it to me.

[Shodan]

@you_with_the_face

I still find it hilarious that yall see nothing wrong with Zimmerman flinging himself on top of Martin just as soon as the kid retreated from him.

Martin didn’t retreat. He was on top of Zimmerman beating him, Zimmerman shot him (although he didn’t realize it for a few seconds) and then Zimmerman rolled Martin off. Not knowing at that instant that Martin was shot, Zimmerman tried to subdue Martin.

So Martin didn’t retreat, and Zimmerman didn’t exactly fling himself anywhere.

You keep insisting that he initially thought the kid was unscathed…

That’s what Zimmerman said, and it is consistent with what he says about the fight..

If he jumped on top of Martin even though the kid had “given up” on his own volition, that suggests Zimmerman would have never given Martin the opportunity to remove himself from conflict.

Martin did not give up of his own volition. He continued the attack as long as he was physically able to do so. And Martin was on top of Zimmerman - Martin had every opportunity to end the conflict.

And the distinction is irrelevant - Zimmerman could not give anyone the opportunity to retreat if that someone was sitting on his chest bashing his head on the ground.

And a reasonable person would note that Zimmerman did not shoot again, even though he was not sure Martin was hit. The instance the beating ended, so did the shooting, as well as the screams for help from Zimmerman.

His own behavior demonstrates as soon as Martin conceeded his ground, Zimmerman wasn’t satisfied until he physically dominated him.

Again, Martin conceded nothing. He continued the beating as long as he was physically capable of doing so - in other words, until Zimmerman shot him.

Which backs up Zimmerman’s story - there was a crazy person on top of him beating his head on the ground, in response to a simple question. And that crazy person was not going to stop until Zimmerman was dead or injured. Nothing was going to stop him except deadly force - not begging, not screaming for help.

Thus, no matter what the kid chose to do, he’d always have a 200 lbs man trying to tackle and restrain him.

Well, no - Martin could always have chosen to end the assault, or not attack Zimmerman in the first place. That would have ended it just as cleanly as shooting him.

Because, as mentioned, the fight was over the instant Martin stopped attacking Zimmerman. Even though Zimmerman did not (allegedly) know he had shot Martin once, he refrained from firing a second shot. The use of deadly force ended immediately. Zimmerman allegedly tried to use non-deadly force, to ensure that the attack would not resume (and, possibly, to restrain Martin from fleeing until the cops arrived a few seconds later), but as far as shooting him again, as you seem to want to believe Zimmerman was eager to do - nope, didn’t happen.

Regards,
Shodan

[you_with_the_face]

[QUOTE=Shodan]

So Martin didn’t retreat, and Zimmerman didn’t exactly fling himself anywhere.
[/quote]

Of course he retreated. He was shot in the chest and fell away from Zimmerman.

That’s what Zimmerman said, and it is consistent with what he says about the fight.. Martin did not give up of his own volition.

Should I repost the reenactment transcripts? After Martin supposedly uttered “okay, you got me”, Zimmerman said he believed the kid was “giving up”. This phrase is Zimmerman’s exact wording.

If he didn’t realize he shot the kid AND the kid uttered words that indicated he was “giving up”, that means Zimmerman should have been under the impression the kid had called off the fight on his own volition. Thus, him immediately jumping on top of the kid and restraining him served as an act an aggression that negates his claim that he was unable to retreat from Martin’s attack. With this admission, he revealed a combative posture, not a defensive one.

Well, no - Martin could always have chosen to end the assault, or not attack Zimmerman in the first place.

The evidence that Zimmerman presents to us on a silver platter says otherwise. We have no reason to believe Martin was ever given the freedom to deescalate the conflict by running away.

It is not in dispute that Martin ended the assault; it ended when he was shot. So lets not speak as if all of this is theoretical. We know what Zimmerman did when Martin backed off. Did Zimmerman pick himself up and run away, showing his intent to get away from the kid? Did he sit there in shock, holding his gun out in front of him in fear? No, he did none of this. When Martin ended his supposed assault, Zimmerman responded with aggression. And Martin didn’t simply stop assaulting him: he verbally gave notice that he was no longer a threat, supposedly. Yet Zimmerman continued to prolong the struggle by getting on top of him.

Two men in a bar break out into a fight. One minute later, the smaller guy announces he gives up and stops swinging. He pulls away. The other guy, fully cognizant that the other is backing off, responds by tackling his opponent, bringing him to the ground, and grabbing his wrists.

Question: if the smaller guy ends up dying of a heart attack during this wrestle lock, doncha think the larger guy is going to be guilty of manslaughter regardless of who started the fight? What would you make of any claim that he was fighting in self-defense?

[Magiver]

@you_with_the_face

Of course he retreated. He was shot in the chest and fell away from Zimmerman.

uh huh. that’s your definition of a voluntary act, falling away? You’re not even grasping at straws anymore.

@you_with_the_face

Should I repost the reenactment transcripts? After Martin supposedly uttered “okay, you got me”, Zimmerman said he believed the kid was “giving up”. This phrase is Zimmerman’s exact wording.
If he didn’t realize he shot the kid AND the kid uttered words that indicated he was “giving up”, that means Zimmerman should have been under the impression the kid had called off the fight on his own volition. Thus, him immediately jumping on top of the kid and restraining him served as an act an aggression that negates his claim that he was unable to retreat from Martin’s attack. With this admission, he revealed a combative posture, not a defensive one.

Well I always take the word of someone who just beat the crap out of me

@you_with_the_face

The evidence that Zimmerman presents to us on a silver platter says otherwise. We have no reason to believe Martin was ever given the freedom to deescalate the conflict by running away.

He had every opportunity to run away. There’s a 2 minute time gap from the end of the dispatch call. Longer if you consider Zimmerman lost sight of him much earlier based on the call transcrip. The only reason Martin would be at the top of the T is to confront Zimmerman. The evidence at hand (from his girlfriend) is that Martin engaged Zimmerman in conversation, not the other way around. Martin came to Zimmerman.

@you_with_the_face

It is not in dispute that Martin ended the assault; it ended when he was shot. So lets not speak as if all of this is theoretical. We know what Zimmerman did when Martin backed off.

There is no evidence that Martin backed off. He was SHOT.

@you_with_the_face

Did Zimmerman pick himself up and run away, showing his intent to get away from the kid? Did he sit there in shock, holding his gun out in front of him in fear? No, he did none of this. When Martin ended his supposed assault, Zimmerman responded with aggression. And Martin didn’t simply stop assaulting him: he verbally gave notice that he was no longer a threat, supposedly. Yet Zimmerman continued to prolong the struggle by getting on top of him.

He should have shot him in groupings of 2 or 3 to ensure a kill shot. Instead he checked for weapons.