Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

In My Humble Opinion
5583

This is my first post on this site.

I have been following this thread for months, and I finally decided to join to voice my opinions and ask questions to some of the posters.

I have my own personal opinions about the case, but I am somewhat puzzled by some of the arguments that are being made in favor of Zimmerman.

Why is there this focus simply on the exact moment of the fight and who was on top or not? Isn’t CONTEXT a factor and the moments leading up to the fight? Afterall, wouldn’t a jury be looking at the context rather than simply the fight itself and what led up to it?

I initially gave Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt. But as I looked over the evidence that was released and especially the police interviews, I changed my opinion. The timelines are off. Zimmerman’s makes statements that do not add up.

I can’t simply throw aside Serino’s assessment.

I can’t throw aside his GF’s statements.

I can’t throw aside some of the things Zimmerman HIMSELF said in the police interviews.

Zimmerman’s account of the fight doesn’t make sense to me and I base this on my martial arts knowledge and experience–I will go into detail later.

Zimmerman was played a tape of the screams (at the police station) and said that it didn’t sound like him. I agree.

It seems some people are repeating verbatim the words that comes out of Zimmerman’s mouth.

I am puzzled by the term “doubled back” (???). What exactly does that mean? Is that a southern expression? Where did Martin “double back” from and where did he “double back” to? I don’t get it.

You can shoot away with your responses.
P.S You in the face: I love your analysis!

5584

Sir,

Wasn’t Zimmerman following Martin? Wasn’t Martin fleeing according to Zimmerman as he said on the emergency call?

Or are you simply referring to the seconds before the alleged fight?

How do you know it was Martin who closed the gap and not Zimmerman?

Also, how did you know Martin was on top of Zimmerman “pounding his head into the ground”?

I am just trying to gain a grasp of your reasoning and understanding of the case, because mine differs from yours–substantially.

5585

You in the face,

I love your analysis. I have been following you for months!

Don’t read too much into constructing the details of the fight and who was on top or not. That’s not going to be as important as some make it out to be if it goes to trial.

Some people are reading too much into the fight itself and not looking at the mechanics of how Zimmerman put himself in that situation. That’s what should be the nail in his coffin, assuming the prosecution does its HW and presents a good case.

There was a recent case where this guy tried using SYG (Texas, I believe) after he filmed himself going to a house to complain about noise. He had a loaded gun. He initiated a confrontation with some of the occupants and killed one of them. He said he feared for his life.

He was sentenced to 40 years.

Now again, this is coming from someone who initially gave Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt. I really don’t see how he gets out of this.

5586

You clearly don’t understand what “retreat” means in this context. For Zimmerman to be required to stop using lethal force, Martin would have to not only have stopped attacking, and moved away, but also clearly communicated to Zimmerman that he was no longer attacking him. This did not happen. Even so, Zimmerman stopped using lethal force as soon as Martin moved away from him, despite not being required to.

Pretty much proves he had no desire to kill.

No. If you’ve actually read the thread as you claim, you’ll know that, and know why.

The short answer is, under Florida self defence law, as Zimmerman was unable to retreat, and in reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, he was entitled to use lethal force no matter what the circumstances leading up to the fight were - including if he started it.

The evidence also shows he didn’t start it, but that’s another issue.

5587

According to Zimmerman, he followed Martin, lost him, and got out of his truck to see what the house number was where he arranged to meet the police. Then Martin came back, they exchanged words, and Martin attacked him.

I am not sure what you mean by “closing the gap”. The evidence that Martin was the first to attack are that Zimmerman had a broken nose and black eyes, and Martin had a scraped knuckle consistent with his having punched someone. Martin had no injuries apart from the gunshot that killed him.

Because an eyewitness saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, and Zimmerman had gashes on the back of his head.

Regards,
Shodan

5588

No need to be condescending, Sir.

I have read MOST of the thread.

It is laden with hypotheticals, and that actually is frustrating to me.

Can you please back up the statement I have colored?

How do you know Zimmerman was unable to retreat?

How do you know he was in great fear of bodily harm?

And most of all, what is your reasoning that he had the right to use deadly force even if he started it? Are there other Florida cases similar to this? What were the decisions?

The problem I am having is many people seem to want to focus on the the so called fight (if one even took place, and yes, I have my doubts).

I think the larger question is why he was in that situation to begin with, if it indeed happened.

I personally don’t believe the event happened the way Zimmerman said it did. I don’t believe he really was out of control the encounter.

Again, what role does Serino’s analysis play in this?

5589

Sir, here are my responses.

According to Zimmerman…Shodan, can you prove decisively that this sequence of events happened the way he said?

Also, if I get a broken nose and a black eye, does that necessarily mean I DIDN’T start a fight (in general)? For instance, I could throw someone to the ground and not necessarily leave a mark on them. I can also place someone in a lock and not necessarily leave a mark on them. What I am saying, sir, is that there are OTHER POSSIBLE explanations for that.

Martin might very well have been on top of Zimmerman. But my question is this: at what point (if this happened) was Martin on top of Zimmerman and how long? what was Zimmerman doing during this time? Was he passive? Were they rolling around the grass with each person ALTERNATING (who was on top)? Is that plausible?

In short Shodan, there are possibly other explanations for what happened during the fight that are not outlandish…this is what I am suggesting.

Again, I initially gave Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt–but that lasted all of 5 minutes (LOL).

I am not trying to be hostile, I just wanted to gain some insight. I believe in leaving no stone unturned and questioning EVERYTHING. It’s not enough for me to say it happened because the defendant said so. I have to go deeper than that.

Thanks for responding,Shodan.

5590

No. In the US legal justice system, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. Outside a court, I tend to believe (provisionally) whatever is backed up by the evidence.

It isn’t absolute proof. It is an indication. The person who initiates a fight, especially with untrained persons and a short fight, has the advantage, and is therefore more likely to inflict injury without suffering much in return.

At the point where the eyewitness saw them. And for long enough to inflict gashes to the back of Zimmerman’s head.

Screaming for help.

Yes, it’s possible. What evidence is there for other explanations?

As I mentioned, it makes sense to believe those parts of Zimmerman’s account that are backed up by evidence.

Zimmerman says he was following Martin, and then lost him. Zimmerman is recorded on the 911 call as saying “these assholes always get away” - not something one is likely to say if you have someone in sight.

Zimmerman says Martin punched him in the face. Zimmerman had a broken nose and black eyes, and Martin had a mark on his knuckle that is consistent with punching someone.

Zimmerman says Martin was on top of him, beating his head against the ground. There is an eyewitness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, and Zimmerman had gashes on the back of his head consistent with having his head struck against the ground.

Zimmerman says Martin attacked him first. All the injuries apart from the gunshot wound are on Zimmerman’s side. Again, consistent with being the subject of an attack rather than the initiator of one.

Etc.

None of this proves anything absolutely. But pretty much all the evidence backs up Zimmerman’s account, subject to the usual messiness of human memory under stress.

There is essentially no other evidence to date that backs up a scenario under which Zimmerman is guilty of a crime.

Regards,
Shodan

5591

Shodan,

That question was for YOU. I am asking you if you can establish decisively that the events occurred the way Zimmerman said they did. After all, you seem to be basing your assessment assuming his version is accurate.

I just wanted you to look deeper.

I don’t believe the event happened the way he said it did.

Even if it was true that Martin was “pounding his head into the pavement” as long as he said, I would have expected Zimmerman to be MORE injured than he was. What was Martin holding onto while he “pounded his head into the pavement”? His head I would assume. Why wasn’t there the blood on Martin showing this?

I don’t get it.

To give you more background about myself, I am very familiar with martial arts and have trained extensively. I am also familiar with police style takedowns and throws.

No way IMO if the events unfolded the way Zimmerman said that he didn’t sustain more damage. If that’s the case, Martin was a weakling.

I don’t see how Martin could have been straddling him the way Zimmerman said, yet still manage to aim (as Zimmerman said) and get a good shot off.

I am still having trouble picturing how they both got to the ground.

Also, how do you reconcile this with Martin’s GF’s statements? She did say that she heard screaming (What are you doing here?) followed by the call being cut off immediately.

Again, I am just looking for insight.

5592

Shodan,

Also, isn’t self defense an affirmative defense?

Wouldn’t the defense have to prove that the events unfolded the way Zimmerman said?

5593

[QUOTE=betenoire39]

Even if it was true that Martin was “pounding his head into the pavement” as long as he said, I would have expected Zimmerman to be MORE injured than he was. What was Martin holding onto while he “pounded his head into the pavement”? His head I would assume. Why wasn’t there the blood on Martin showing this?
[/quote]

Welcome to the board, beternoire39, and thanks for appreciating my viewpoint.

The sentence that I’ve bolded is just one out of eleventy problems with Zimmerman’s defense. If we take his account of what happened out of the equation and just looked at the physical evidence, we have nothing to suggest that Martin even touched Zimmerman, let alone beat him. Not even the witnesses purport that they saw Martin make skin contact with Zimmerman; the most they assert is the kid was on top.

To believe that Martin did all this hitting and pounding, and yet walked away with nary a speck of Zimmerman’s blood or skin cells on his hands or hoodie, is to believe in the implausible. Add it to the list of all the other implausibilities associated with Zimmerman’s story, and you get guilt. Plain and simple.

5594

To repeat myself, No.

No, I am not. I believe Zimmerman’s version insofar as it is backed up by evidence.

To repeat myself -

What evidence do you have that someone always gets blood on his hands pounding someone else’s head into the pavement?

And also, as far as the known evidence goes, it would appear Zimmerman had his head pounded on the ground. This is backed up by the fact that Zimmerman had injuries to the back of his head, and that someone saw Martin on top of Zimmerman.

If your use of scare quotes is meant to suggest that Martin didn’t pound Zimmerman’s head on the ground, what evidence do you have in favor of another theory? How did he get the injuries to the back of his head, and what evidence do you have to offset what the witness related?

It isn’t enough, in a court or in real life, so say “it could have happened another way”. There is evidence consistent with it happening the way Zimmerman tells it. Unless and until you have better evidence, “could have” doesn’t have much force.

A broken nose, two black eyes, two gashes to the back of the head, and a sprained back. All in the course of less than two minutes.

You think shooting someone who is sitting on top of you is a trick shot? Martin was shot from less than point-blank range.

Which causes me, I am afraid, to doubt your experience with actual fighting. In my experience, the scenario as described by Zimmerman, and as shown in the evidence, is far and away the most common way that a streetfight tends to happen. Two guys argue, one or the other throws a sucker-punch, followed by a rush and a ground-and-pound. This is hardly difficult to picture - in many fights, it is practically unavoidable to wind up on the ground.

What is there to reconcile? She (allegedly - she didn’t report the call for some weeks after the attack) heard someone screaming. It would seem fairly likely to be Zimmerman - he reports screaming for help, and another witness heard him. And attackers who are winning a fight, as Martin was, rarely scream for help. Just the opposite - Zimmerman claims that Martin put his hand over Zimmerman’s mouth at at least one point in the fight.

Go back and read the thread, paying particular attention to posts from Bricker. I don’t the patience to repost the answer for the umpteenth time.

Regards,
Shodan

5595

I agree. And I initially gave Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt. It doesn’t add up to me either. IMO, everything I needed to know came from his mouth in the police interviews. I also don’t think he was alone that night, but that’s another story that i won’t elaborate on right now.

  1. I do not believe Zimmerman’s version of events is backed up by evidence. I disagree with you.

  2. Let’s say I break someone’s nose and “pound their head into the pavement”. How reasonable would be to ask for blood to be on me from those injuries? Very reasonable.
    I would be EXTREMELY surprised if that didn’t happen. Extremely.

  3. I think Zimmerman hit his head on something else. I don’t think he sustained that injury because his head was “pounded into the pavement”. I would have expected a messier head wound. I personally think they were rolling around in the grass and Zimmerman hit his head during the process. Possibilities: a foreign object in the grass or maybe the edge of a sprinkler box. It seemed like a sharp object made that head wound.

I personally don’t feel the fight left the grass–if it did, it was only briefly.

  1. Sir, with all due respect, please don’t make assumptions about people. I know Muy Thai, Aikido and Jujitsu. I spar with blackbelts. I often leave these sparring matches with cuts and lots of bruises and some bleeding. I have caused people to bleed. There was usually evidence of this on my robe–blood! Why? Because I was in proximity to them (sparring) while they were bleeding.

Please don’t tell me what I don’t know. It is my fighting knowledge that is really leading me to doubt Zimmerman’s claims.

I personally think they got to the ground because of Zimmerman…I think he used a throw on Martin–this is my hunch. I will go into details later.

  1. Reconcile Zimmerman’s story to the phone call. She said her BF said this guy was following him…is that wrong? Didn’t she hear a loud voice getting closer to Martin?
5596

Nailed it. I have gotten blood on me from small cuts to my sparring partner.

I would expect that after fighting someone with A HEAD AND A NOSE WOUND that there would be more blood present, especially if the fight lasted as long as it did.

I would really love Zimmerman to act out the fight to the letter.

I am going to put aside my over decade long fighting experience and keep an open mind.

5597

Ok. We’re going to have to hold the phone here.

He wasn’t alone? I’ve got to hear this one. And trust me, I am no Zimmerman apologist. I think he’s a Barney Fife wannabe, who turned full-on pussy and used his big shiny gun to win a fight that he started.

Now. He wasn’t alone that night?

Please elaborate. Pretty please with a cherry on top.

5598

I will PM you–don’t want to derail the thread.

5599

Not in Florida. In Florida, the defense merely has to claim self-defense; the testimony of the accused is sufficient to do this. Once that has been done, the burden is on the prosecution to disprove self-defense, beyond a reasonable doubt.

5600

Thank you.

5601

I think you are beginning in serious error. What you need to know is what about his account is true, what is false, and what is unproven or indeterminate. To establish that, you need to look at the evidence.

Can you please indicate the foreign object that you think was in the grass, or point to the sprinkler box with blood on it?

Also, please indicate your forensic expertise that allows you to predict the exact nature of the injuries you expected, and how Zimmerman’s gashes would differ if they were made with a sharp object rather than by blunt force trauma.

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

I would expect someone with actual fighting knowledge to show a better understanding of how street fights go down in the real world.

I look forward to that. Especially the part where you produce actual evidence that Zimmerman used a throw. Even though no one saw him do it, no one claims he did so, and there is no evidence that Zimmerman had the kind of martial arts experience needed to bring off a throw in actual combat.

Of course, given your notion that Zimmerman was not alone, based on (apparently) nothing at all, I am not particularly sanguine that such evidence will be forthcoming.

No, it is correct. Did you read what I said earlier? Zimmerman was following Martin. Then he lost him. That why, on the 911 transcripts, Zimmerman said “these assholes - they always get away”. If Zimmerman had not lost sight of Martin, the statement makes no sense. Why would Zimmerman say that Martin had got away if he had him still in sight?

And Dee Dee also mentions that Martin said that they lost sight of each other.

Cite.

No, the first one to speak (according to Dee Dee’s testimony) was Martin.

Of course, it is hard to know how much weight to give to Dee Dee’s testimony, since later she goes to be be fairly confused and contradictory - first she says she heard a “bump”, then she could hear “the grass”, which I don’t really understand. Then she says the phone shut off, but later that she could hear someone screaming “get off” even after that. She identified that someone as Zimmerman, who she never met (and who she characterized as sounding like an old man - Zimmerman was 28).

So she isn’t a particularly good witness, but even she backs up Zimmerman’s story to some extent.

Regards,
Shodan

5602

  1. That is very curious–very. So I can consider only certain things Zimmerman said???:confused:
    I am being very generous to him…I am taking what he said as true like I would an LSAT question. I am pointing out inconsistencies. I will never forget when Serino played the tape of the screaming and asked Zimmerman about it…Zimmerman said it didn’t sound like him. That was extremely telling.

  2. I will give you some cites soon. I also assume that you will do the same supporting your contention that Zimmerman’s head wound came from being “pounded into the pavement”.

  3. see above.

  4. I have been in street fights, sir. You end up on the ground when someone tugs you or pushes you there or your trip on something. You might get knocked out too, although that’s never happened to me.

So Martin punched Zimmerman and he was so dazed as he claimed and “stumbled” (40 feet or so???) and Martin continued his “vicious attack” and straddled him. He also “pounded his head into the pavement” (for a good minute or so).

I have hit my head on concrete. Trust me, even one hit was extremely uncomfortable. Imagine the hits that supposedly Martin got off. I would have expected more serious injury from him.

Despite all of this, Zimmerman was able to recollect himself, somehow get a hand free, chamber a gun (which is another point: when did Zimmerman chamber his gun?) aim (according to his own words) and kill Martin.

Another point: why didn’t the bullet hole entry and exit wounds line up on the hoodie? Apparently, the entry hole was lower than the exit (on the hoodie), almost like Martin’s hoodie was being pulled down from the front when he was shot.

All the while he has a head injury and a nose injury and no blood really gets on Martin. How does this happen?

I am sorry, but there gets to be a point where this just starts sounding ridiculous and can’t be supported or believed.

I have been extremely level headed about this and initially gave Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt.

No more.

  1. Crap GZ said himself during the interviews as well as review of all of the surveillance tapes that were released.

  2. I disagree that Zimmerman “lost him”. It is clear that Martin THOUGHT he lost Zimmerman.