Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[betenoire39]

Also, if Zimmerman was injured that badly, shouldn’t the medics have brought him to the hospital anyway? Wouldn’t they have been held liable if they didn’t?

Wouldn’t they have been obligated to go anyway even if Zimmerman refused? A person could potentially die–this has happened where a person hit his head but didn’t die immediately.

This is what I don’t understand.

Where’s the concussion?

Deep abrasions?

Skull fractures?

Again, where’s the blood on Martin?

Does anyone have a reasonable answer to these questions?

[Shodan]

@betenoire39

1. That is very curious–very. So I can consider only certain things Zimmerman said???

Consider everything he said in light of the known evidence. If it has evidence to back it up, believe it (provisionally). If it doesn’t, don’t.

I believe I said that before.

I will give you some cites soon.

I look forward to that. Also some cites on why you believe Zimmerman was not alone. Especially the last part.

I have been in street fights, sir. You end up on the ground when someone tugs you or pushes you there or your trip on something.

Or when someone sucker punches you in the face, and then rushes you and starts a ground-and-pound.

Another point: why didn’t the bullet hole entry and exit wounds line up on the hoodie? Apparently, the entry hole was lower than the exit (on the hoodie), almost like Martin’s hoodie was being pulled down from the front when he was shot.

We covered this too. Read the thread - it’s long enough as it is, and doesn’t need reposting to make it longer.

I disagree that Zimmerman “lost him”. It is clear that Martin THOUGHT he lost Zimmerman.

Martin thought he lost Zimmerman, and Zimmerman thought he lost Martin. Who else is there?

Regards,
Shodan

[Shodan]

Also, if Zimmerman was injured that badly, shouldn’t the medics have brought him to the hospital anyway? Wouldn’t they have been held liable if they didn’t?

Wouldn’t they have been obligated to go anyway even if Zimmerman refused?

No. Zimmerman was under no legal obligation to go to the hospital.

Regards,
Shodan

[betenoire39]

@Shodan

No. Zimmerman was under no legal obligation to go to the hospital.

Regards,
Shodan

I am talking about the MEDICS.

[you_with_the_face]

@betenoire39

I also don’t think he was alone that night, but that’s another story that i won’t elaborate on right now.

I haven’t ruled this out, either.

By the way, you mentioned the timeline earlier. This is another aspect of Zimmerman’s story that is implausible. But even if we ignore his outlandish claims about Martin doubling back and circling his car, things don’t add up if we assume Zimmerman was near the clubhouse when he made that call.

Here’s a theory that has been tossed around elsewhere, that resonates strongly with me:

Zimmerman phoned the cops while parked near the clubhouse, after spotting the kid near the entrance into the community. It is probable that sometime before calling, he had crept along in his vehicle as Martin walked down the street; this is why Martin reported to his GF he was being followed.

While GZ was on the phone, Martin eventually caught up to his truck and passed him. If GZ was parked at the clubhouse, he would have been near the intersection of Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle. Thus, after Martin walked passed GZ’s parked truck, GZ would have loss sight of him as he disappeared around the corner.

So this is when GZ went to follow Martin in his truck. And this is where we get to the interesting part. When GZ drives turns onto Twin Trees, contrary to expectation, the kid is no where in sight. OMG! The kid has run off! This is the conclusion that GZ leaps to. But it’s the wrong conclusion. The kid hasn’t run, but rather he’s standing near the clubhouse mailboxes, trying to get out of the rain. This is verified by Martin’s GF. In her affidavit, she says Martin decided to take shelter at the mailboxes at some point on his way home.

So what’s GZ doing while Martin is relaxing at the mailboxes? He was running around like a chicken with its head off, convinced that Martin had taken flight all the way down the dog path and was heading to the back entrance of the community. It doesn’t matter that this would have meant Martin had suddenly transformed himself into an Olympic sprinter from Krypton; this is what his wild delusional paranoid brain led him to believe.

So he got out of his truck and took off running. The dispatcher told him not to follow, he said “okay”, but he continued to head south (either on Retreat View Circle or the backyard pathway) in search for the kid. After turning up empty, that is when he headed back to his car. By that time, Martin has finally made his way to the T area. This is when they encounter each other.

This theory answers a lot of the questions that folks on both sides of the debate keep bringing up, and it clears up the problematic timeline. One such question: If Martin ran away from Zimmerman at the point that GZ said he did, why did he stop running so quickly? Why didn’t he just run all the way home? The answer is that he never ran away; Zimmerman just imagined that he did. It also explains how Zimmerman and Martin didn’t end up encountering each other sooner.

The theory is supported by Martin’s GF and is consistent with science. There is no way that Martin could have made it to the end of the street in the short time it took GZ to turn down Twin Trees. So I think the theory fits better than the story that Zimmerman provided.

[betenoire39]

@you_with_the_face

I haven’t ruled this out, either.

By the way, you mentioned the timeline earlier. This is another aspect of Zimmerman’s story that is implausible. But even if we ignore his outlandish claims about Martin doubling back and circling his car, things don’t add up if we assume Zimmerman was near the clubhouse when he made that call.

Here’s a theory that has been tossed around elsewhere, that resonates strongly with me:

Zimmerman phoned the cops while parked near the clubhouse, after spotting the kid near the entrance into the community. It is probable that sometime before calling, he had crept along in his vehicle as Martin walked down the street; this is why Martin reported to his GF he was being followed.

While GZ was on the phone, Martin eventually caught up to his truck and passed him. If GZ was parked at the clubhouse, he would have been near the intersection of Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle. Thus, after Martin walked passed GZ’s parked truck, GZ would have loss sight of him as he disappeared around the corner.

So this is when GZ went to follow Martin in his truck. And this is where we get to the interesting part. When GZ drives turns onto Twin Trees, contrary to expectation, the kid is no where in sight. OMG! The kid has run off! This is the conclusion that GZ leaps to. But it’s the wrong conclusion. The kid hasn’t run, but rather he’s standing near the clubhouse mailboxes, trying to get out of the rain. This is verified by Martin’s GF. In her affidavit, she says Martin decided to take shelter at the mailboxes at some point on his way home.

So what’s GZ doing while Martin is relaxing at the mailboxes? He was running around like a chicken with its head off, convinced that Martin had taken flight all the way down the dog path and was heading to the back entrance of the community. It doesn’t matter that this would have meant Martin had suddenly transformed himself into an Olympic sprinter from Krypton; this is what his wild delusional paranoid brain led him to believe.

So he got out of his truck and took off running. The dispatcher told him not to follow, he said “okay”, but he continued to head south (either on Retreat View Circle or the backyard pathway) in search for the kid. After turning up empty, that is when he headed back to his car. By that time, Martin has finally made his way to the T area. This is when they encounter each other.

This theory answers a lot of the questions that folks on both sides of the debate keep bringing up, and it clears up the problematic timeline. One such question: If Martin ran away from Zimmerman at the point that GZ said he did, why did he stop running so quickly? Why didn’t he just run all the way home? The answer is that he never ran away; Zimmerman just imagined that he did. It also explains how Zimmerman and Martin didn’t end up encountering each other sooner.

The theory is supported by Martin’s GF and is consistent with science. There is no way that Martin could have made it to the end of the street in the short time it took GZ to turn down Twin Trees. So I think the theory fits better than the story that Zimmerman provided.

Yeah…

Part of me is just puzzled why people buy Zimmerman’s story, especially in light of the surveillance tapes, his supposed injuries and his statements.

I was surfing youtube and this poster brilliantly and succinctly lays out what he thinks happened.

This guy also brought up the possibility that Zimmerman could have possibly entered W11’s house during his pursuit of Martin–very intriguing stuff.

This one is very thought provoking as well:

Now, I would not have used the language and tone he used, but his points are very good.

[betenoire39]

Shodan,

I actually relistened to Zimmerman’s interview with the female detective.

I think he could have hit his head on the dogwalk sign.

Zimmerman even says this during the interview.

This means that he could have gotten his head injury while he was standing up, not by having his head “pounded in the pavement”.

[betenoire39]

Wow…this guy is really thought provoking:

You in the face–take a look at this:

link

What do you think?

[Shodan]

@betenoire39

I am talking about the MEDICS.

The medics have no power to force Zimmerman to go to the hospital if he doesn’t want to.

Still waiting for those cites.

Regards,
Shodan

[emeraldia]

@betenoire39

I agree. And I initially gave Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt. It doesn’t add up to me either. IMO, everything I needed to know came from his mouth in the police interviews.

Out of curiosity, if Zimmerman didn’t shoot Trayvon Martin in self-defense, what was his motivation? Just for kicks? Or did he cover his extreme hatred of black people by mentoring them, going into business with them, and protesting on their behalf? Or are you one of those moon-bats that is convinced he was some kind of sadist?

Tell me what would drive someone, who has no record of ever having even thrown a punch, or doing anything that could ever seriously injure another person, to gun down a black teenager? He mentors black teens by day, and then goes and murders them by night?

I’m just curious whether you think he is a closet racist or he is a closet sadist, because it seems that he’d have to be one or the other to make the decision to blast an innocent black kid. Yet the background investigation discovered neither of these characteristics.

So why did he do it?

I also don’t think he was alone that night, but that’s another story that i won’t elaborate on right now.

Oh OK. Someone else decided to offer assistance to Zimmerman in his goal to murder an innocent black kid. At least Zimmerman was a team player.

4. Sir, with all due respect, please don’t make assumptions about people. I know Muy Thai, Aikido and Jujitsu. I spar with blackbelts. I often leave these sparring matches with cuts and lots of bruises and some bleeding. I have caused people to bleed. There was usually evidence of this on my robe–blood! Why? Because I was in proximity to them (sparring) while they were bleeding.

Please don’t tell me what I don’t know. It is my fighting knowledge that is really leading me to doubt Zimmerman’s claims.

I will expect to see you during the immunity hearing, dressed up in your gi, testifying on behalf of the prosecution. Until then, I’ll reserve judgement until after other experts have had a chance to weigh in as well.

I personally think they got to the ground because of Zimmerman…I think he used a throw on Martin–this is my hunch. I will go into details later.

Why does something tell me that Zimmerman not only was not proficient in mixed martial arts, but that he was not even a particularly good fighter? Oh that’s right, because he was the one with the broken nose and bloody head, and Martin had not a scratch on him. If Zimmerman employed a Judo throw, it was the only move (besides firing his gun) that he executed successfully.

5. Reconcile Zimmerman’s story to the phone call. She said her BF said this guy was following him…is that wrong? Didn’t she hear a loud voice getting closer to Martin?

This is a relatively minor point but.. Dee Dee was NOT Trayvon’s girlfriend, and Trayvon was NOT her boyfriend.

You don’t need to respond to any of this.. my main question for you is what Zimmerman’s (and his co-conspirator’s) motives were in murdering an innocent black teenager?

[emeraldia]

@betenoire39

Wow…this guy is really thought provoking:

You in the face–take a look at this:

link

What do you think?

Oh no.. another follower of Mr. Garrison and Mr. Hat. I assume you’re a frequent visitor to the Leatherman blog? If not, you’re going to really thank me for introducing you. In case you don’t know who he is, here’s a bio on him. http://emeraldharlequin.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/the-nutty-pro/

[you_with_the_face]

@betenoire39

Wow…this guy is really thought provoking:

You in the face–take a look at this:

link

What do you think?

Eh, I don’t know. I suspect some of the witnesses saw more than they are willing to let on and may have even assisted Zimmerman in some way, but I don’t think there is enough evidence to strongly support anything stronger than low-level suspicion.

Of all the witnesses I’m most troubled by, it’s the one who was the first on the scene after Martin was shot. First thing supposedly out of his mouth was not “are you hurt?” or “what happened?” The witness himself said he immediately asked Zimmerman about the caliber of the weapon he used to take down Martin. That’s the kind of question one hunter asks another in the middle of a deer hunt. It makes me think that neighborhood must have a disproportionate number of psychos.

[betenoire39]

Emeraldia,

I don’t even know how to begin answering you.

No, I am not a follower of Mr. Garrison. I was not even made aware of him until today.

I am not a frequent visitor of this Leatherman (WTF???).

Why are you making these unfounded assumptions about me?

I was actually in dialogue with Shodan.

I wanted to know his reasoning about the case. I was simply curious about that.

What is this rant about?

I actually find your writing to be bizarre.

There was no hostility exchanged with anyone–I don’t know why you would go off like this and what the purpose of this would be.

Sir, this will be the first and probably the last time I directly respond to you.

wow…

@emeraldia

Out of curiosity, if Zimmerman didn’t shoot Trayvon Martin in self-defense, what was his motivation? Just for kicks? Or did he cover his extreme hatred of black people by mentoring them, going into business with them, and protesting on their behalf? Or are you one of those moon-bats that is convinced he was some kind of sadist?

Tell me what would drive someone, who has no record of ever having even thrown a punch, or doing anything that could ever seriously injure another person, to gun down a black teenager? He mentors black teens by day, and then goes and murders them by night?

I’m just curious whether you think he is a closet racist or he is a closet sadist, because it seems that he’d have to be one or the other to make the decision to blast an innocent black kid. Yet the background investigation discovered neither of these characteristics.

So why did he do it?
Oh OK. Someone else decided to offer assistance to Zimmerman in his goal to murder an innocent black kid. At least Zimmerman was a team player.
I will expect to see you during the immunity hearing, dressed up in your gi, testifying on behalf of the prosecution. Until then, I’ll reserve judgement until after other experts have had a chance to weigh in as well.
Why does something tell me that Zimmerman not only was not proficient in mixed martial arts, but that he was not even a particularly good fighter? Oh that’s right, because he was the one with the broken nose and bloody head, and Martin had not a scratch on him. If Zimmerman employed a Judo throw, it was the only move (besides firing his gun) that he executed successfully.

This is a relatively minor point but.. Dee Dee was NOT Trayvon’s girlfriend, and Trayvon was NOT her boyfriend.

You don’t need to respond to any of this.. my main question for you is what Zimmerman’s (and his co-conspirator’s) motives were in murdering an innocent black teenager?

[betenoire39]

@you_with_the_face

Eh, I don’t know. I suspect some of the witnesses saw more than they are willing to let on and may have even assisted Zimmerman in some way, but I don’t think there is enough evidence to strongly support anything stronger than low-level suspicion.

Of all the witnesses I’m most troubled by, it’s the one who was the first on the scene after Martin was shot. First thing supposedly out of his mouth was not “are you hurt?” or “what happened?” The witness himself said he immediately asked Zimmerman about the caliber of the weapon he used to take down Martin. That’s the kind of question one hunter asks another in the middle of a deer hunt. It makes me think that neighborhood must have a disproportionate number of psychos.

No…I just never heard this perspective before. It was very interesting. I was just asking for your opinions on it, that’s all ;). I haven’t weighed it for myself enough.

I agree about that. I don’t know what the weapon caliber would be relevant.

The cast of individuals I agree is somewhat troubling.

[Magiver]

@you_with_the_face

It’s stupid to argue, on one hand, that he no reason to summon an ambulance after being visciously beaten by a maniacal thug, while also arguing that he was justified in using lethal force in response this viscious attack by a maniacal thug. Pick one position or the other. Arguing both is crazy.

It’s a perfectly logical argument to make. The time to shoot someone in self defense is before they inflict a deadly wound. He feared this would happen. What don’t you understand about this?

[monstro]

The fact that Zimmerman denied having any bruising just a couple of days after the incident should give his defenders some pause. Also note that Serino does not comment on any facial injuries during his questioning (there is also video that appears to show a non-bruised Zimmerman).

Listen at 12:13

I have never had a black eye, let alone two. But I have gotten bruised before, as someone who regularly bumps into things. My bruises stay in their black and blue phase for at least four or five days. Then they turn into yellowish-blueish monstrosities that way for another few days. I have never had a bruise, even a minor one, clear up in two days. AND even if I had just gotten over a rapidly healing bruise, if asked if I had any bruises, the first thing out of my mouth would be, “Not right now, but oh boy! You shoulda seen the sucker I had just a couple of days ago!”

Also, listen to his rather dispassionate response when he is asked if he is in any physical pain. Makes me think he’s really not in very much pain, but I dunno.

Question:

If someone repeatedly banged your head into the sidewalk in such a way that it made you fear for your life, wouldn’t you remember where on your head your assailant grabbed you? Don’t you think the placement of his hands would be forever etched in your memory, along with the seering pain?

[Magiver]

@betenoire39

3. I think Zimmerman hit his head on something else. I don’t think he sustained that injury because his head was “pounded into the pavement”. I would have expected a messier head wound. I personally think they were rolling around in the grass and Zimmerman hit his head during the process. Possibilities: a foreign object in the grass or maybe the edge of a sprinkler box. It seemed like a sharp object made that head wound.

His version of events is consistent with witnesses. He was clearly on the ground based on what they saw and the evidence on his shirt. This is what will be presented in court.

@betenoire39

I personally don’t feel the fight left the grass–if it did, it was only briefly.

Again, eye witnesses saw the 2 of them on the ground with one person on top.

@betenoire39

4. Sir, with all due respect, please don’t make assumptions about people. I know Muy Thai, Aikido and Jujitsu. I spar with blackbelts. I often leave these sparring matches with cuts and lots of bruises and some bleeding. I have caused people to bleed. There was usually evidence of this on my robe–blood! Why? Because I was in proximity to them (sparring) while they were bleeding.

Please don’t tell me what I don’t know. It is my fighting knowledge that is really leading me to doubt Zimmerman’s claims.

Zimmerman wasn’t gushing blood like a fire hose and this wasn’t a martial arts tournament.

@betenoire39

I personally think they got to the ground because of Zimmerman…I think he used a throw on Martin–this is my hunch. I will go into details later.

Zimmerman threw Martin on the ground and landed underneath him?

[Magiver]

@monstro

Question:

If someone repeatedly banged your head into the sidewalk in such a way that it made you fear for your life, wouldn’t you remember where on your head your assailant grabbed you? Don’t you think the placement of his hands would be forever etched in your memory, along with the seering pain?

Your question makes no sense. Why would his head be grabbed? there’s nothing to grab onto unless he had hair or ginormous ears. His head would have been pushed and Martin’s hands would have been all over him.

[you_with_the_face]

@Magiver

Your question makes no sense. Why would his head be grabbed?

Maybe you didn’t get the memo that’s been circulating around the last 6 months, but its Zimmerman who has said that Martin grabbed his head. I know, it sounds crazy, but that is what your boy is claiming.

[betenoire39]

@Magiver

1. His version of events is consistent with witnesses. He was clearly on the ground based on what they saw and the evidence on his shirt. This is what will be presented in court.

2. Again, eye witnesses saw the 2 of them on the ground with one person on top.

3. Zimmerman wasn’t gushing blood like a fire hose and this wasn’t a martial arts tournament.

4. Zimmerman threw Martin on the ground and landed underneath him?

1. I am not denying he was on the ground. I am denying the sequence of events he gives. I don’t think he hit head HOW and WHEN he said he did.

2. Sure–not denying that.

3. There should have been more blood on Martin than was indicated. That was my point. Lots of supposed injury, but so little physical evidence on Martin.

4. Not in that order. I personally believe Zimmerman initially took him down or attempted to and Martin fought back (as he should have). Yes, they were probably rolling around in the grass. Martin probably at some point was on top of him. I am not denying this as a possibility.

Magiver, my issue is what led to this encounter. I am sure legal weight will be put on that.

I will reiterate, despite a recent rant that was directed towards me (WTF???), I initially gave Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt.

But after watching the police interviews (all of them) and thinking about this further, I don’t trust a word that guy says. I don’t believe the event occurred the way he said it did. I am basing this almost entirely on statements Zimmerman made that just simply don’t add up (and didn’t add up to Serino either).