Absolutely correct. Having looked this up, it could have been caused by many things, and if he actually had something wrong with his brain, that would explain why he attacked Zimmerman without provocation. That makes the whole thing more tragic, as it would mean Martin was not responsible for his actions. Doesn’t make Zimmerman a criminal.
When did Martin scratch Zimmerman? He punched him and slammed him into the floor, there’s no reason for his fingernails to be in contact with Zimmerman’s skin.
DNA can prove quite a lot by it’s presence, but it’s absence doesn’t prove a great deal. But then, you’ve already been told this in this thread and ignored it…
You can’t see yourself calling the police when you witness suspicious behaviour? Glad I don’t live near you then.
Or you can’t see yourself defending yourself against a brutal attack? I doubt that, and frankly if you actually mean that, your a fool.
Or possibly you mean you wouldn’t volunteer for the neighbourhood watch. I can believe that, since you think people shouldn’t report their suspicions, but should be allowed to severely beat people with no comeback.
Do you honestly believe the shit you just wrote? Seriously…
So you’re implying that Martin had the edema BEFORE he supposedly attacked Zimmerman? Don’t say I misread you…
WHAT THE FUCK!!??? :eek:
There doesn’t have to be a scratch…You get shit lodged under your fingernails all the time. I get some food particles lodged there from cooking…I get oil lodged from working on a car. Your point?
So ZImmerman suspected Martin of burglary. I guess then Officer Zimmerman had evidence to make an arrest then.
I am sorry, but this post completely disturbed me.
The police call didn’t bother me–I said NOTHING about this.
**
I have firmly argued that this was not self-defense on Zimmerman’s part.**
This is my argument.
Whatever you say Steophan. Whatever…:dubious:
I am amazed at the density of some posters.
Wow.
I will remember your IMPLICATION that perhaps the Edema caused Martin to allegedly attack Zimmerman. As if Martin got the edema from nowhere.
I read some speculation (not going to link to it) that perhaps Zimmerman hastened Martin’s death by restraining him the way he did, and that the edema may be evidence of this.
I’d never heard of cerebral edema before this, but reading about them, they can be caused by a variety of things, not just trauma.
One possibility is that Zimmerman struck Martin, of course, but the edema isn’t proof of that.
If Martin had a brain condition that caused him to act irrationally, it would pretty much explain everything - the unusual behaviour that caused Zimmerman to suspect him, the unprovoked attack. I’ve no idea how likely this is, though.
Do you have any reason to think it wasn’t present before the fight?
No, but I have plenty to reason to think it was present after Martin had his unfortunate run in with Zimmerman.
The autopsy said so.
Steophan, please read over what you said before–it really comes off as being utterly ridiculous.
One of the problems I am having with some posters on this thread is that they are using only deductive reasoning on certain aspects of the case.
Implications of what is being said are either not being followed or missed entirely.
For instance, with my exchange with Shodan, I gave him cites. It is my contention that Zimmerman initiated the PHYSICAL CONTACT with Martin.
Why?
Witnesses saying they saw one figure chasing another. Either Martin was chasing Zimmerman or Zimmerman was chasing Martin.
DeeDee heard Martin say “get off, get off” as well as the headset being knocked off.
Zimmerman’s history as a bouncer and what people who knew him said about him.
How plausible is it that Martin** who even Zimmerman admitted was running away, ****CAME BACK **(WHILE ON THE PHONE WITH DEEDEE—I guess he was better than Usain Bolt to cover that much distance in such a short period of time) and started “attacking him and pounding his head on the pavement”?
Add this up.
I guess I would be STRONGLY SUGGESTING that it was Zimmerman who initiated the physical contact, not Martin.
Why is it convenient? It’s just speculation, and you’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t care for any speculation from the Martin side.
What’s convenient is you thinking a finding of brain edema is more likely evidence of Martin’s criminality than his victimhood. I have no doubt that if Zimmerman had evidence of brain edema, we would be treated to a dissertation about how seriously injured he was. But for Martin? It’s evidence that he was an irrational monster. Your reasoning would laughable if it weren’t so pathetic.
I actually think the most likely explanation is that Martin had severe hypoxia due to where he was shot. The face-down position that Zimmerman placed him in did not help this at all, but I don’t think the dude intentionally hastened his death since he tried to call someone over to help with restraining him.
I know. You would think these people are joking, but apparently they’re not. Sickening.
As for the edema, it might have been from the shot, but it may not. It very well could have been from Zimmerman INDEPENDENT of the shot. That is a REAL AND DISTINCT POSSIBILITY and not some fluff I have come up with.
But my question is this: we know Martin didn’t live much longer after the shot…is it possible that the edema developed afterwards anyway?
Is it unreasonable to think maybe Martin got it because he was denied air by Zimmerman (as in from smothering)?
I don’t think it is an unreasonable suspicion, but I don’t think there’s enough evidence to hold up as proof. Edema is just a sign that Martin didn’t come out unscathed. But then again, the big ole hole in his chest is also proof of this.
And I think the fact that he tried to get someone to help him with Martin makes it harder for us to reasonably assume that he intentionally tried to hurt him after he was shot. I suppose in that instant between him calling out for help and the police arriving, he might have tried something. But I’m thinking Martin was probably dead at that point.
I actually think the most likely explanation is that Martin had severe hypoxia due to where he was shot. The face-down position that Zimmerman placed him in did not help this at all, but I don’t think the dude intentionally hastened his death since he tried to call someone over to help with restraining him.
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That’s what Zimmerman said he did, AFAIK, that hasn’t been corroborated by any of the witnesses. According to multiple witness, he told them to call the cops and never asked for help in restraining the kid.
Just everything else, it’s one more indication the guy can’t be trusted to tell the truth.
I reread a statement from one of the EMTs. Apparently Zimmerman’s vital signs were eerily normal right after the incident–blood pressure, heart rate, you name it.
No, I think it’s possible evidence of a non-criminal reason for Martin to have been acting strangely, and for attacking Zimmerman without provocation.
The evidence that Martin isn’t the victim here is Zimmerman’s face, covered in cuts and bruises, and Martin’s face, which wasn’t. There’s no doubt Zimmerman was on the receiving end of a sustained attack, but no-one’s been able to come up with a convincing reason why. I find it odd, to say the least, that a theory that would show Martin was not a thug is being dismissed out of hand by people who have been so irrationally defending him all these months.
That said, it’s pure speculation, and I’d not be surprised if it turns out to be false. We still would need an explanation how someone with no apparent head trauma had a brain injury, though.
Please link to this statement. Shock doesn’t necessarily manifest itself as stress, but no signs of high adrenaline would be extremely unusual, either in the case of someone who’s just shot someone in self defence, or in the case of someone who’s just chased down and murdered someone.
Or, for that matter, someone who’s simply witnessed either of the above.
You know, don’t chase people with loaded guns and use the gun to bail yourself out.
Plain and simple.
I will repeat:
He could have had his lights on, pulled up to Martin IMMEDIATELY (rather than trail him as long as he did) and say “Kid, relax, Neighborhood Watch–didn’t mean to scare you, you just didn’t look familar…”
The shit could have ended RIGHT THERE–RIGHT FUCKING THERE.
Since I suspect Zimmerman shot Martin to cover up his inappropriate detainment of the kid, it isn’t unreasonable to believe he hastened the kid’s death somehow. I don’t know if there is evidence for this, but it is consistent with why Zimmerman wasn’t in a rush to call an ambulance.
It is also explains why Zimmerman has emphasized his failure to recognize the kid was shot. It’s like a preemptive answer to a question no one has asked. “Why didn’t you call for an ambulance or ask someone else to call for one?” His answer is that he didn’t know he shot the kid, that’s why. But I have already pointed out the problem with this response: it blatantly incriminates him as an aggressor.
Would have been much better for him to admit to not caring that his attacker received emergency care than to admit that he got on top of the surrendering kid and restrained him like he said he did.
Hey, those with faces and others - I am taking $100 bets that Zimmerman will not be convicted of 2nd degree murder. If you’re so sure of the case against him, take the bet. I will cover all comers.