Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[Shodan]

@you_with_the_face

I’m not citing anything that is in the document dump. Zimmerman was refered to a ENT doctor.

There is no evidence in the document dump that Zimmerman was never examined by a professional qualified to diagnose a broken nose. So you still need to cite what you claim.

Regards,
Shodan

[Shodan]

@dimmy_derko

If even he isn’t sure how often he was hit, why are you so convinced it happened at all and that it isn’t either a figment of his active imagination, or an outright lie?

Because Zimmerman had a broken nose, black eyes, gashes on the back of his head, eyewitnesses saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, and Martin had marks on his knuckles consistent with his having punched someone. You know, evidence that backs up that part of Zimmerman’s account.

We’ve been over this before.

Even people who are innocent of any wrongdoing could probably not give a second-by-second account of everything they did, and a complete transcript of everything they said or was said to them, and be 100% accurate in every detail. Particularly if they had just suffered head injuries sufficient to break their nose and put gashes into the back of their head.

Which word of that didn’t you understand?

Regards,
Shodan

[dimmy_derko]

If this picture is the best evidence of Z’s injuries the defence has, besides a claim from his own family doctor and a precautionary exam by EMT, I doubt any jury is going to believe he was in as much fear as he claims.

[you_with_the_face]

@Shodan

There is no evidence in the document dump that Zimmerman was never examined by a professional qualified to diagnose a broken nose. So you still need to cite what you claim.

You’ve taken a string of words completely out of the context and are now to attempting to arguing against it, in the desperate attempt to hide the inadequacy of your own position.

It’s not working.

[Magiver]

@demony darko

Why are you so ready to believe that in a dimly lit area, a person who had been busily beating the shit out of some random guy who couldn’t fight his way out of a wet paper bag, then noticed the gun that his victim was carrying - before said victim even remembered he had it - and decided “This beating shit is getting boring. Let’s step this up a bit.”?

"This beating shit is getting boring? How about: “damn, the guy I’ve been beating the shit out of has a gun!!!”

Don’t you think Martin would fear getting shot at this point If Zimmerman got the gun first?

[Steophan]

@Bricker

This is a bit confusing, I know.

The general concept here is “legal sufficiency.”

The jury is entitled to weigh evidence and accept or reject any of it. So it’s not correct to say that uncontradicted evidence must be accepted.

At the same time, though, you’re right with the X and Y example.

The jury is entitled to disbelieve Zimmerman. But they can’t substitute another set of facts that they do believe.

To illustrate the point, let’s imagine that some fact in my civil lawsuit hinges on the result of a coin flip. As the plaintiff, I testify that when we flipped the coin, it came up heads. Now remember in a civil lawsuit, the burden of proof is “preponderance of the evidence,” basically a standard that says I must have more than 50% of the evidence on my side to win.

If the jury believes me, then they can find, as a matter of fact, that the coin flip came up heads. That’s enough, without any other evidence, to support that finding.

But what if the jury disbelieves me?

Here’s where it gets confusing: they CANNOT find that the coin flip came up tails. There’s no evidence on the record to let them reach that conclusion. The mere fact that there’s evidence for heads that they disbelieve is not enough to allow them to make a positive finding.

Thanks, you’ve explained the point I was trying to make much better than I could.

[Bricker]

@demony darko

His weight was confirmed by measurement using a machine specifically designed for such purpose. Was Z’s nose ever X-rayed?

How do you know his weight was confirmed by measurement?

[Bricker]

@you_with_the_face

This is cute, but I’ve never said the report was inaccurate. Only that we can’t use the ICD coding as evidence of a definitive diagnosis when 1) he never was examined by professional capable of making that diagnosis and 2) Zimmerman’s condition was qualified as “likely” in the notes. This has nothing to do with accuracy and all to do with knowing how to interpret information contained in a medical report.

But nice try.

Fair enough, as to (2).

[sugaree]

Zimmerman’s weight appears to fluctuate wildly (no biggie, lots of people yo-yo). He was a little over 200 the night of the shooting (per his doctor’s appointment the next day) but down to 185 at the time of his arrest, six weeks later (per his booking info). Judging from his appearance at his most recent hearing, he’s back up and well over 200.

He’s 5’8", although his self-reported height on his passport lists him as 5’10". Yes, I giggled. I think it’s funny when men lie about their height.

@Terr

New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all&

However it started, witnesses described to the 911 dispatcher what resulted: the neighborhood watch coordinator, 5 foot 9 and 170 pounds, and the visitor, 6 foot 1 and 150, wrestling on the ground.

As was said above, Trayvon’s autopsy report lists him as 5’11", not 6’1".

@Shodan

Because of the mark on Martin’s knuckle. That backs up Zimmerman’s assertion that it was a punch.

head explodes

@Shodan

Dee Dee claims the phrase used was “get off me” and we have an eyewitness that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and never vice versa. It makes no sense to claim that Martin was sitting on Zimmerman’s chest yelling “get off me”.

I wanted to address this the first time you brought this point up, so I’m glad you said it again. Dee Dee claims that Trayvon uttered the phrase “Get off, get off” very early in the altercation, too early to assume that the two were already on the ground. And “get off” or “get off me” are phrases commonly used when one person is restraining or interfering with another. I’ve heard it said by small children who didn’t want to picked up or hold hands at the moment, and I’ve heard it said by women being groped against their will.

The term doesn’t necessarily mean that one person is physically on top of another in the manner that icing is on top of a cake. It’s more a shortcut: Get [your hands] off me.

[sugaree]

@Bricker

How do you know his weight was confirmed by measurement?

We don’t; we weren’t there and have no video. But it’s SOP to be weighed at a doctor’s appointment, and to be weighed during booking. I mean, that’s how they get the little numbers to fill in on the forms.

[Magiver]

@demony darko

You’re stating this as fact… any particular reason why? Why do you believe that anyone other than a trained martial artist could mount a person nearly 50lb heavier and control them?

Because anyone can knock another person down with one punch. Weight has nothing to do with the universal frailty of the human head. Everybody’s head is equally vulnerable to a disabling blow.

Once a person gets on top of another who is on the ground there is a serious fighting advantage. at 5’ 11" and 158 lbs Martin had that advantage and then some.

Oh, and the the weight difference was 27 lbs. That’s not almost 50 lbs.

[sugaree]

@Magiver

Because anyone can knock another person down with one punch. Weight has nothing to do with the universal frailty of the human head. Everybody’s head is equally vulnerable to a disabling blow.

Once a person gets on top of another who is on the ground there is a serious fighting advantage. at 5’ 11" and 158 lbs Martin had that advantage and then some.

Oh, and the the weight difference was 27 lbs. That’s not almost 50 lbs.

You are comparing Zimmerman’s weight at his April 11 arrest with Martin’s weight at his February 26 death, but that’s irrelevant because Martin’s ghost wasn’t fighting FutureZim.

[hmarvin]

@sugaree

You are comparing Zimmerman’s weight at his April 11 arrest with Martin’s weight at his February 26 death, but that’s irrelevant because Martin’s ghost wasn’t fighting FutureZim.

A good point. The coroner weighing would be sans clothes and blood.

[hmarvin]

[quote=“hmarvin, post:6775, topic:619125”]

A good point. The coroner weighing would be sans clothes and blood.[/QUOT
If he was average, with 12 pints, he would have weighed 13.2 pounds more in life.

[you_with_the_face]

I think hmarvin just officially took the prize for the most desperate attempt to defend Zimmerman. Not just within this thread, but the entire Internet.

[hmarvin]

@you_with_the_face

I think hmarvin just officially took the prize for the most desperate attempt to defend Zimmerman. Not just within this thread, but the entire Internet.

Not really. Martin was at the crime scene for several hours before being moved, likely oozing blood. Blood weighs 1.1 pounds per pint. Coroners remove blood, you know. Martin’s not going to weigh the same in death as he did in life.

[you_with_the_face]

@hmarvin

Not really. Martin was at the crime scene for several hours before being moved, likely oozing blood. Blood weighs 1.1 pounds per pint. Coroners remove blood, you know. Martin’s not going to weigh the same in death as he did in life.

If you really think the kid bled out 12 pints of blood after having his heart blown to bits and dying, cry, the beloved country.

[sugaree]

Martin actually left little blood at the scene: he bled out internally. And coroners do not remove blood before weighing the body.

But whether or not Martin weighed 158 in life, Zimmerman still weighed 204 at the time of the incident.

[Magiver]

@sugaree

Martin actually left little blood at the scene: he bled out internally. And coroners do not remove blood before weighing the body.

But whether or not Martin weighed 158 in life, Zimmerman still weighed 204 at the time of the incident.

well if you’re splitting hairs then you have to account for clothing.

getting back to the actual fight, Martin held the advantage of height and fitness. The idea that he couldn’t bring Zimmerman down conflicts with the evidence that he did.

[sugaree]

Reminding you that Zimmerman weighed 204 and not 185 (or some other more random number people are pulling out of their vague memories) is hardly splitting hairs. Adding in the weight of clothing and lost blood is splitting hairs.