I don’t know. The position of the body is hard for me to ignore now. Before I was willing to allow that Martin hadn’t been killed instantly and that he could have orientated himself away from the sidewalk while dying. But if the prosecution determines from the coroner that there was no way Martin could have turned himself all the way around like that after getting shot, that’s a major strike against the defense. I’m thinking they would need to reconstruct the scene to make the facts fit with the claim. If they can’t make it seem plausible, how would that not be damning?
There’s still no conclusive evidence he died instantly. Being shot in the heart isn’t synonymous with being unable to move or react. The FBI has done studies on this sort of thing (incapacitating shots are very important to law enforcement), and people in gun fights have been able to move and return fire for a period of time after being shot in the heart.
So there’s that.
Then there is the part where you said “the prosecution determines from the coroner that there was no way Martin could have turned himself all the way around like that after getting shot.” Given many heart wounds aren’t instantly deadly, I doubt the coroner would speak in absolutes about that, so what the prosecution determines would slam up against what the defense determines.
I doubt that the evidence on body positioning is going to be so conclusive for either side that it survives the various lawyers on both sides as solid fact in the mind of the jury.
And just anecdotally I’ve shot things in the heart before and had them flee for some time afterwards. It’s happened to at least a couple deer and one bear. I know I shot them in the heart because (obviously) when hunting you have to cut the animal open and remove all of that before taking it out of the woods, so you’re in a good position to know what internal organs you’ve hit.
Now, in the past 15 years that’s never happened because I use IMO a much better round than I used to, my ideal shots will typically go through the heart or lungs if I’m off a little and the more destructive round I use now tends to cause such massive trauma to the heart (compared to the past) that I’ve not had animals move much at all. The first deer I took with my current rifle essentially fell in midstep and was dead/unconscious immediately.
I’ve heard that in humans at least, a large trauma to the heart can cause a massive drop in BP and instant unconsciousness/death (I guess your brain actually lives on unconscious for a few minutes but death is inevitable.) That’s outside my knowledge area though so that could be total BS. But you can be shot in the heart and just suffer more localized damage without the heart suffering such trauma, it’s still fatal, but without the immediate incapacitation.
OK, but how did Martin grab Zimmerman’s head? By the neck? By the forehead? By the ears? One-handed or two? Can the defense show that it’s possible for Martin to have slammed Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk AND be in the position to reach for a holstered gun? And if Zimmerman concedes that maybe he had pulled the gun out after all, thereby explaining why at least one of his hands wasn’t free (and why Martin may have reacted the way he had), wouldn’t that be a pretty major inconsistency?
The set-up here is important. It’s one thing to suspend disbelief about the punching-with-no-bruised-knuckles thing. But suspending that and something else might be a little too much for a jury. I think that’s the problem with the defense’s case. I know I can buy one or two WTFs (getting out of a truck to check a street sign, for instance). But a whole slough of them, and you’re pushing your luck.
I have a lot of WTF about the prosecution’s case too. In scenarios like that you don’t just throw your hands up and say “guilty.” The opposite, in fact.
The only thing to me that has changed since all this started is there is more now to make me feel more confident that Zimmerman will not be convicted of 2nd Degree Murder (and I actually placed $250 on that not happening.)
But remember the gun shot occurred at pretty close range, Martin. Close enough to 'splode an organ. If Martin’s heart was popped like a balloon, the prosecution isn’t going to have to dance too hard to convince a jury that Martin died instantly.
If Zimmerman’s statement does not indicate any post-shooting movement by Martin, that’s another blow. I would think, even during the adrenaline rush of just shooting your attacker, you would notice whether he went out like a light or if he rolled or lurched. Wouldn’t you look to make sure that you weren’t going to have to shoot the guy again? If on that night, Zimmerman told the police that Martin didn’t move an inch after he fell off him, don’t you think that will need some explaining? I don’t know if the police would have the foresight to pull out such detailed information, though. We still don’t even know if they asked for a blood sample (which, if they didn’t, is a damn shame).
I’m curious what you think the prosecution’s WTFs are, Martin. And do you think they really measure up to the number and kind on the defense side?
Reading through the various links it seems that the evidence is mounting in Zimmerman’s favour. Could any of our posting prosecutors (current or ex) see a plea deal here?
I think Zimmerman would be I’ll served by any lawyer suggesting a plea deal at any point before the SYG hearing.
Zimmerman called the police who where en-route and would be there shortly. Logically, he would try to keep Martin within eyesight. Otherwise he would risk being arrested for assaulting Martin.
“When you shot Trayvon, what happened?”
“He said, ‘You got me’. And I pushed him off to the side.”
“To the side? He just fell?”
“Yep.”
“Did he look like he was still alive?”
“Nope. He lay right where he fell.”
“Did you move him? Maybe to try to see if he was alive?”
“Nope. Like I said, how you guys saw him is exactly how he fell.”
If Zimmerman’s statement contains anything like the above, I don’t care how many black eyes he has. He has to explain himself. And it’s not going to be easy to do.
'sploded heart probably wouldn’t result in immediate cessation of movement nor in instant death. Severed spinal column would be about the only certainty that there was no movement after the shot.
It is one thing if expert testimony says its possible though not probable for the guy to have flipped. It is another to expect the jury to believe it happened if Zimmerman did not say it happened while being questioned. Especially if he explicitly denied any post-shooting flailing. It could be one WTF too much.
What needs to be explained? If someone is beating the crap out of you and you shoot him in self defense you’re suppose to try and save your attacker?
The CNN article states as follows:
So it seems Martin would have been above the cutoff for Nevada and below the cutoff for Ohio. And for Ohio, he was at the same order of magnitude as the cutoff.
Defense-side WTFs:
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Zimmerman did not get out of his car to pursue Martin, but to check a street sign.
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That Martin, a guy that had been running away from Zimmerman according to Zimmerman’s own 911 call, double-backed and confronted Zimmerman.
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That Martin, not Zimmerman, was the initial aggressor, when the only person who had any clear intent to engage in a fight was Zimmerman, not Martin.
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That Zimmerman would take the path he did back to his truck without intending to follow/pursue Martin. (This is a WTF only if Zimmerman denies that he wasn’t trying to follow or pursue Martin).
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That Martin would say the things he said, assuming that the things he reportedly said are in Zimmerman’s police statement.
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That Zimmerman could hear those words over his own screaming.
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That Martin could inflict such damage without sustaining any bruises to his hands. (a small scratch below a knuckle does not count)
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That Martin could do the things he did to Zimmerman without showing evidence of defensive strikes on him. This is a WTF only if Zimmerman’s statement does not indicate that his hands were pinned.
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That Martin could do the things he did with Zimmerman’s gun being holstered the whole time. If Zimmerman does not say the gun was holstered the whole time, then this is not a WTF. But everything in his statement better line up with this (no, “I was reaching for my cell phone but he saw my gun instead and freaked out.”
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That Martin rolled or flipped AND Zimmerman did not mention this in his statement IF asked about it. I think I would remember the kind of reorientation it would take for Martin to end up on his stomach, hands underneath him, head pointed away from the sidewalk. Martin’s body could not have ended up positioned the way he was without either death throes-rolling or body manipulation. Unless Trayvon was not shot while on top of Zimmerman. If Zimmerman pushed Trayvon off before shooting him, this could explain the body position. Moreover, it would explain why Zimmerman did not have any of Martin’s blood on him (another WTF) and why another witness saw the two of them separated. But can Zimmerman claim SYG after he’d already pushed Martin off him? This is the question.
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That Zimmerman would be able to scream so continuously while getting his head bashed in and also (assuming this is his claim) wrestling for a gun.
The prosecution’s WTFs:
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The screaming on the 911 was reportedly not assigned to Martin by his father. (It was by his mother, however.)
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That Zimmerman killed Martin with malice intent (2nd degree).
Any more?
No. Please try to read what I’m writing. He’d need to explain how the guy could die instantly (if this is what he claimed) and end up the way he did on the ground. If Zimmerman does not give any certainty about Martin’s movements post-shooting, then it’s not a big deal. But if Zimmerman was certain that Martin rolled off of him and landed in the exact position where he was found, never to move again, then this needs to be reconciled with the claim that Martin had been slamming Zimmerman’s head into the concrete seconds before being shot. This is not a trivial point–something just to throw one’s hands up in the air about.
What kind of fucked up logic is that?
If I’m sitting in my car and I see someone in my neighborhood who I think is a criminal and I call the police, the last friggin thing I’m going to do is get out of my car so I can keep him within eye-sight. I guess unless I had a brand new shiny gun that I could hide behind if shit went bad … so there that, I suppose. Florida seems to be right behind that “logic.”
OK, thanks. I must have missed that, in the kajillion posts we’ve had since then! 
At risk of sounding… er… heartless… I take it you’re not a hunter, or been involved in shooting larger animals. I have shot both deer and elk in the heart and had them move afterward. No long distance running, I grant, but as much as fifteen to twenty feet, before collapsing.
One further note: on the Today show this morning, someone – Crump, O’Mara, or Matt Lauer – said that the prosecution planned to introduce text messages sent by Zimmerman in the days following the shooting. I have to say A HA to that revelation – if Zimmerman’s post-event admissions are inculpatory, that could be a huge plus for the prosecution.
And, as an aside, it would clear up the persistent discrepancy – why didn’t the police charge him that night, but the speciual prosecutor did weeks later? Potential answer: because she had a ton of text messages from Zimmerman crowing about how he beat the rap, and see how quickly he can make up a believable story when he needed to?
I think if Zimmerman did something intentionally bad, as opposed to just put himself in a stupid situation there is a decently realistic chance he shared that information with someone else. Zimmerman’s behavior in the initial 60 or so days after the shooting isn’t consistent with the behavior of a smart person, so that’s actually why I mentioned Zimmerman talking about his crime to outside parties as the only thing I can see right now that would clearly indicate a conviction.
I think the rest of it, with body positioning and all that, is too close to “Junior Matlocking” for me. I don’t know anything about the science behind that, but I know shot animals move a bit after being shot, even in the heart (Bricker has obviously seen the same) so minor “confusion” about Martin’s body positioning just isn’t persuasive to me and I don’t think it’ll be hard to explain. But I’m not a forensic or medical expert, maybe they really will have some conclusive evidence Martin could not have moved at all and just dropped. But to me that’s not a WTF unless there is conclusive evidence along those lines.
It’s not enough BTW just to show some “WTF” with the defense case, the prosecutor has to actually prove elements of her case beyond a reasonable doubt, including “ill will” and such to support a 2nd Degree Murder conviction. So it takes more than just “WTFs” with Zimmerman’s case to prove that BRD.
I should point out, a dispassionate observer will find WTFs with both cases, I know I have. That suggests to me the “known facts” of the case are genuinely murky, because we know there is a true story, we just don’t know if the defense or the prosecution is closer in their version to the truth. I doubt either is the absolute truth of what happened.
The crime occured in Florida not Nevada or Ohio. Ohio’s cutoff is 2ng/mL which is below 1.5 ng/mL found in his system. How is it the “same order magnitude”? How and why carboxylated THC (inactive) is used as a measuring stick for marijuana intoxication is beyond me. It’s inactive, so inactive in fact that has no agonist activity against the CB1 receptor. None. Zip. Nada. This is precisely why lawyers and politicians should stop drafting laws and issuing patents without taking the initiative of enrolling in basic biology and pharmacology classes first, but that’s a personal pet peeve and another discussion entirely.
In either case, I can assure you that Trayvon Martin was NOT “high on drugs” with a plasma concentration of 1.5 ng/mL of THC. I’ll vigorously defend that position and there’s no doctor worth his salt would tell you otherwise. To put it in perspective, finishing a joint of the finest Amsterdam kush (3% (w/v) THC) would spike plasma concentrations between 100 - 180 ng/mL. Psychotropic dose of THC is about 80 - 100 ng/mL; with 1.5ng/mL, Trayvon Martin was not high. At best, Trayvon Martin smoked earlier that day between 6 - 12 h, and that’s assuming he’s a exceptionally fast metabolizer of THC which is unlikely. More realistically, however, he probably smoked 24 - 48 h before the incident.
- Honesty