Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[treis]

Martin in the 7-11:

Video News - CNN

IMHO he’s acting abnormal. It takes him a long time to pull the money out of his pockets and then he randomly wanders back into the store to pick up something on the ground. It’s another boost to Zimmerman’s case.

[Martin_Hyde]

@Honesty

The crime occured in Florida not Nevada or Ohio. Ohio’s cutoff is 2ng/mL which is below 1.5 ng/mL found in his system. How is it the “same order magnitude”? How and why carboxylated THC (inactive) is used as a measuring stick for marijuana intoxication is beyond me. It’s inactive, so inactive in fact that has no agonist activity against the CB1 receptor. None. Zip. Nada. This is precisely why lawyers and politicians should stop drafting laws and issuing patents without taking the initiative of enrolling in basic biology and pharmacology classes first, but that’s a personal pet peeve and another discussion entirely.

In either case, I can assure you that Trayvon Martin was NOT “high on drugs” with a plasma concentration of 1.5 ng/mL of THC. I’ll vigorously defend that position and there’s no doctor worth his salt would tell you otherwise. To put it in perspective, finishing a joint of the finest Amsterdam kush (3% (w/v) THC) would spike plasma concentrations between 100 - 180 ng/mL. Psychotropic dose of THC is about 80 - 100 ng/mL; with 1.5ng/mL, Trayvon Martin was not high. At best, Trayvon Martin smoked earlier that day between 6 - 12 h, and that’s assuming he’s a exceptionally fast metabolizer of THC which is unlikely. More realistically, however, he probably smoked 24 - 48 h before the incident.

• Honesty

I don’t know how much all that science “mumbo-jumbo” matters. The fact that he had THC in his system will be all a lot of jurors hear.

[treis]

@Honesty

In either case, I can assure you that Trayvon Martin was NOT “high on drugs” with a plasma concentration of 1.5 ng/mL of THC. I’ll vigorously defend that position and there’s no doctor worth his salt would tell you otherwise.

Martin’s blood was at 1.5 ng/mL, not his plasma.

[Poochey]

@Martin_Hyde

I think if Zimmerman did something intentionally bad, as opposed to just put himself in a stupid situation there is a decently realistic chance he shared that information with someone else. Zimmerman’s behavior in the initial 60 or so days after the shooting isn’t consistent with the behavior of a smart person, so that’s actually why I mentioned Zimmerman talking about his crime to outside parties as the only thing I can see right now that would clearly indicate a conviction.

I think the rest of it, with body positioning and all that, is too close to “Junior Matlocking” for me. I don’t know anything about the science behind that, but I know shot animals move a bit after being shot, even in the heart (Bricker has obviously seen the same) so minor “confusion” about Martin’s body positioning just isn’t persuasive to me and I don’t think it’ll be hard to explain. But I’m not a forensic or medical expert, maybe they really will have some conclusive evidence Martin could not have moved at all and just dropped. But to me that’s not a WTF unless there is conclusive evidence along those lines.

It’s not enough BTW just to show some “WTF” with the defense case, the prosecutor has to actually prove elements of her case beyond a reasonable doubt, including “ill will” and such to support a 2nd Degree Murder conviction. So it takes more than just “WTFs” with Zimmerman’s case to prove that BRD.

I should point out, a dispassionate observer will find WTFs with both cases, I know I have. That suggests to me the “known facts” of the case are genuinely murky, because we know there is a true story, we just don’t know if the defense or the prosecution is closer in their version to the truth. I doubt either is the absolute truth of what happened.

It doesn’t help that one of the witnesses saw Zimmerman wobbly after the shooting, and one of the officers stated Zimmerman complained of having a headache and being lightheaded afterward. (usually symptoms of at least a mild concussion, which can occur if you get your head pounded. It might have been to his benefit to have gone to the hospital immediately for diagnosis.) Zimmerman’s recall of events may not have been perfect under those conditions. Never talk to the police when you’re woozy, or even otherwise, without a lawyer present.

[John_Mace]

@treis

Martin in the 7-11:

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t1#/video/us/2012/05/18/vos-trayvon-martin-surveillance-7-11.7-11

IMHO he’s acting abnormal. It takes him a long time to pull the money out of his pockets and then he randomly wanders back into the store to pick up something on the ground. It’s another boost to Zimmerman’s case.

Looks pretty normal for a teenager to me. The video is choppy, and it makes everything look a little odd. The only thing that video does, IMO, is establish that TM was a pretty big dude.

[treis]

@John_Mace

Looks pretty normal for a teenager to me. The video is choppy, and it makes everything look a little odd. The only thing that video does, IMO, is establish that TM was a pretty big dude.

It is not normal to take 10 seconds to dig cash out of your pocket, or to go and pick something up off the floor after you have paid.

[PatriotX]

@monstro

No. Please try to read what I’m writing. He’d need to explain how the guy could die instantly (if this is what he claimed) and end up the way he did on the ground. If Zimmerman does not give any certainty about Martin’s movements post-shooting, then it’s not a big deal. But if Zimmerman was certain that Martin rolled off of him and landed in the exact position where he was found, never to move again, then this needs to be reconciled with the claim that Martin had been slamming Zimmerman’s head into the concrete seconds before being shot. This is not a trivial point–something just to throw one’s hands up in the air about.

Iirc, Cutcher said she saw Z standing over M messing with M’s body after the shot.

[John_Mace]

@treis

It is not normal to take 10 seconds to dig cash out of your pocket, or to go and pick something up off the floor after you have paid.

How many teenagers do you know? Besides. you can’t really tell from the video when he knows what the bill is going to be. This film does nothing to establish odd behavior.

[Martin_Hyde]

@treis

It is not normal to take 10 seconds to dig cash out of your pocket, or to go and pick something up off the floor after you have paid.

It’s taken me that long to dig cash out of my pockets. Not “normal” for me, but it’s happened before without anything being amiss.

[treis]

@Honesty

The crime occured in Florida not Nevada or Ohio. Ohio’s cutoff is 2ng/mL which is below 1.5 ng/mL found in his system. How is it the “same order magnitude”? How and why carboxylated THC (inactive) is used as a measuring stick for marijuana intoxication is beyond me. It’s inactive, so inactive in fact that has no agonist activity against the CB1 receptor. None. Zip. Nada. This is precisely why lawyers and politicians should stop drafting laws and issuing patents without taking the initiative of enrolling in basic biology and pharmacology classes first, but that’s a personal pet peeve and another discussion entirely.

In either case, I can assure you that Trayvon Martin was NOT “high on drugs” with a plasma concentration of 1.5 ng/mL of THC. I’ll vigorously defend that position and there’s no doctor worth his salt would tell you otherwise. To put it in perspective, finishing a joint of the finest Amsterdam kush (3% (w/v) THC) would spike plasma concentrations between 100 - 180 ng/mL. Psychotropic dose of THC is about 80 - 100 ng/mL; with 1.5ng/mL, Trayvon Martin was not high. At best, Trayvon Martin smoked earlier that day between 6 - 12 h, and that’s assuming he’s a exceptionally fast metabolizer of THC which is unlikely. More realistically, however, he probably smoked 24 - 48 h before the incident.

• Honesty

Here is another cite:

Skopp et al[xxx] studied serum cannabinoid levels of heavy (n = 12, > 1 joint/day), moderate (n = 11, < or = 1 joint/day) and light (n = 6, < 1 joint/week) smokers of cannabis for up to 48 hours after smoking cannabis, and found “For heavy users of cannabis, THC was detectable in 8 samples, and in 5 cases both biologically active compounds, THC and 11-hydroxy-THC, were present (1.3-6.4 ng THC/mL serum, 0.5-2.4 ng 11-hydroxy-THC/mL serum). Among moderate users, in 1 sample 1.8 ng THC/mL serum and 1.3 ng 11-hydroxy-THC/mL serum were determined, and another sample was tested positive with low concentrations close to the limit of detection. In serum samples of light users both analytes could not be detected, indicating that in those persons a positive finding of THC and 11-hydroxy-THC may rather result from recent consumption than from cannabis use 1 or 2 days prior to blood sampling.

http://www.idmu.co.uk/drugtestcan.htm#_edn17

So 1/11 moderate users had detectable THC within 48 hours and none of the light users did. It’s unlikely that it was a residual THC, and much more likely that he had smoked that night.

@Martin Hyde

It’s taken me that long to dig cash out of my pockets. Not “normal” for me, but it’s happened before without anything being amiss.

I usually don’t jam both of my hands wrist deep in my pockets and then just sit there for 4 seconds while I’m digging around for cash. And that isn’t the only thing he does. He makes a bee line back into the store to pick up something off teh floor and then starts wandering again. He looks suspicious, and given the low speed at which he was walking, it is just one more thing corroborating Zimmerman’s account.

[Fear_Itself]

@treis

It is not normal to take 10 seconds to dig cash out of your pocket, or to go and pick something up off the floor after you have paid.

What strange world you live in.

[BobLibDem]

Seems to me that being high on pot would make one more mellow, not more aggressive. And that taking longer than normal to find cash in your pocket would be evidence of diminished capacity for streetfighting.

[Jack_Batty]

The last thing we need in this country is teenagers who don’t get change out of their pockets quick enough, or who pick things up off the ground. Nice shootin’ Zim.

[you_with_the_face]

@Bricker

One further note: on the Today show this morning, someone – Crump, O’Mara, or Matt Lauer – said that the prosecution planned to introduce text messages sent by Zimmerman in the days following the shooting. I have to say A HA to that revelation – if Zimmerman’s post-event admissions are inculpatory, that could be a huge plus for the prosecution.

Zimmerman strikes me as exactly the kind of person who would text something stupidly incriminating and think he could get away with it as long as the messages were deleted from the phones.

Another WTF that monstro overlooked, that also incriminates Zimmerman is his comment at the bond hearing when he apologized by saying he didn’t know Martin had been unarmed. There is no reason this should have been on the forefront of his mind if the fight had occurred the way he said did. It suggests that Zimmerman shot Martin because he assumed Martin would shoot him. Not because of anything Martin actually did.

If Martin put him in fear for his life just by his fists alone, then why would it matter whether he was armed or not?

Even if we consider that maybe he meant that he thought Martin was suspicious in the first place because he assumed the kid was armed, then…WTF? According to this logic, it was Martin who was justified in believing that Zimmerman was up to no good. Why? Because Zimmerman was armed. Martin wasn’t. So if this what Zimmerman meant, he basically admitting that he targeted Martin for an “offense” that he himself was guilty of.

Anyone else have an idea of what could have possibly driven Zimmerman to say what he did at the bond hearing?

[Terr]

@monstro

2. That Martin, a guy that had been running away from Zimmerman according to Zimmerman’s own 911 call, double-backed and confronted Zimmerman.

How else do you explain where the fight happened? Martin had plenty of time to get home if that is where he was heading.

3. That Martin, not Zimmerman, was the initial aggressor, when the only person who had any clear intent to engage in a fight was Zimmerman, not Martin.

'cuz you can get into Martin’s and Zimmerman’s heads and know what their intent was.

5. That Martin would say the things he said, assuming that the things he reportedly said are in Zimmerman’s police statement.

Because there is someone who can contradict that those things were said?

6. That Zimmerman could hear those words over his own screaming.

The screaming was not continuous.

7. That Martin could inflict such damage without sustaining any bruises to his hands. (a small scratch below a knuckle does not count)

The damage is there. Explain it by other means.

8. That Martin could do the things he did to Zimmerman without showing evidence of defensive strikes on him. This is a WTF only if Zimmerman’s statement does not indicate that his hands were pinned.

The damage is there. Explain it by other means.

9. That Martin could do the things he did with Zimmerman’s gun being holstered the whole time.

Why not? If Zimmerman does not say the gun

10. That Martin rolled or flipped AND Zimmerman did not mention this in his statement IF asked about it. I think I would remember the kind of reorientation it would take for Martin to end up on his stomach, hands underneath him, head pointed away from the sidewalk. Martin’s body could not have ended up positioned the way he was without either death throes-rolling or body manipulation. Unless Trayvon was not shot while on top of Zimmerman. If Zimmerman pushed Trayvon off before shooting him, this could explain the body position. Moreover, it would explain why Zimmerman did not have any of Martin’s blood on him (another WTF) and why another witness saw the two of them separated. But can Zimmerman claim SYG after he’d already pushed Martin off him? This is the question.

Have no idea what you’re talking about. Marting was on top of Zimmerman. Zimmerman shoots him. Martin falls forward. Zimmerman scoots out. Martin winds up face down on the ground. What is the “WTF”? And yes, the documents show that Martin’s blood WAS found on Zimmerman. And what do you mean why another witness saw the two of them separated - was Zimmerman under some requirement to stay on the ground once Martin was killed?

11. That Zimmerman would be able to scream so continuously while getting his head bashed in and also (assuming this is his claim) wrestling for a gun.

The screams were not continuous.

[treis]

@BobLibDem

Seems to me that being high on pot would make one more mellow, not more aggressive. And that taking longer than normal to find cash in your pocket would be evidence of diminished capacity for streetfighting.

Wasn’t much of a fight. Martin sucker punched him when Zimmerman went for his phone.

[BobLibDem]

@treis

Wasn’t much of a fight. Martin sucker punched him when Zimmerman went for his phone.

So you’re simultaneously claiming that Martin was so high he couldn’t fish change out of his pockets but moments later he had the reflexes of a ninja?

[treis]

@BobLibDem

So you’re simultaneously claiming that Martin was so high he couldn’t fish change out of his pockets but moments later he had the reflexes of a ninja?

Didn’t realize you need the reflexes of a ninja to sucker punch someone.

[Martin_Hyde]

@BobLibDem

Seems to me that being high on pot would make one more mellow, not more aggressive. And that taking longer than normal to find cash in your pocket would be evidence of diminished capacity for streetfighting.

This is what I would think, but I’ve known people who get really paranoid and I could see where that might lead to a physical altercation.

Nothing like say alcohol though, which is a straight up fight-starter for lots of people.

[Martin_Hyde]

@treis

Didn’t realize you need the reflexes of a ninja to sucker punch someone.

Yeah, you actually can do it with the reflexes of a drunk. Another strike against BobLibDem, someone who has made by far the worst arguments in this thread.