“I was going to protect my children from diseases, but I didn’t like your tone, so now I’ll leave them vulnerable!” Said no rational person ever.
Tone trolling is common in this debate. Pro-science posters are just such big meanies, dontcha know, when we post scientific facts.
Thanks, but they’re still talking about dogs. Me, I love dogs. Prefer theirs to human company, as a rule. But I thought this thread was about Andrew Fucking Wakefield, a monster who has the blood of children on his hands. Not some vet who suggests we rethink vax schedules for pets.
Oh puh-leeze, no one is going to buy your wounded fawn routine.
I saw one person (before you) who asked questions in a manner that frankly had more than a few elements of the whole ‘just asking questions’ routine. It is not paranoia, it is experience. Other forums have a name for it: “The mark of woo”. There are ways that questions are worded when a person has a genuine search for knowledge - and there are ways questions are asked to start a cascade in good old FUD.
Which is after Dr Dodds started telling the public about it. Again, why didn’t the AVMA and others let the public know at all?
OK, that’s fine but it’s beside the point. She is the one who let the public know about the changes in the vaccination schedule, not the AVMA.
What does that have to do with it? 
It appears that isn’t true any more.
“If I’d said that, sure. But of course, I didn’t - what I did say is the paranoids only get “mean”, rather than attempting at all to find out what the actual question is. Jumping all over someone who doesn’t know everything you do is hardly educational.”
It’s paranoia. I have no interest either way if anyone vaccinates their kids or not, so that fact you think my questions were “worded wrong” (jesus) just shows all you want to do is fight about it, not educate.
I just wanted you to know that at least one person saw this perfect moment of ironic trolling, and applauded it. Bravo sir.
Because they had no hard-proven data, in a peer-reviewed journal. Just saying “I think they’re not needed” without a backup data is not enough.
The AVMA and other organizations let their members know, so that they could pass it forward to the public. And the only public that I know hears Dr. Dodds are breeders, not the public at large.
Dr. Dodds had no data when she made those comments, and distributed those opinions. She was not part of the task-force or co-author of many of the papers.
Yes, it doesn’t contradict what I’ve been saying, if you read further. He is also co-author of the recent dog and cat immunology paper. Which mentions that the good long-term immunity is built by the series of booster shots during puppyhood.
Yes, all vaccines have side effects, but those are minor, in terms of population health, compared to the overall benefits, in terms of population health.
Which reminds me, there is something that happens a lot when thinking about risk vs benefit. In many areas, especially public health (and large parts of veterinary medicine), the risks and benefits are not measured in individuals, but in terms of populations. Yes, many vaccines have very low percent of adverse reactions, or very minor reactions across a population. Yes, an individual may suffer some reaction, which depending on the type, may preclude the use of that or other vaccines in the future for that person. But overall, the benefits outweigh the negatives.
Yes, a particular dog (or person) may have a reaction against a vaccine severe enough that he shouldn’t have another shot of that type. Does not mean that vaccines are bad overall, they are bad for that particular individual. And that individual is a very small minority in a large population that receives the same vaccine with no problem.
Truly, I get to hear and read reports of vaccines that are removed during trials because they cause too many adverse reactions to be considered safe enough.
We do have much to learn from our rigorously polite opponents, who do things like posting a photoshopped image of pro-vaccine advocates preparing to feast on a baby at Thanksgiving.
Truly, the antivax/anti-science crowd doesn’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to civility, which is why it should stick to discussing the issues (of course, since facts are so unkind to their arguments, invoking tone may seem like a better option).
A story in yesterday’s New York Times about Dr. Maurice Hilleman–whom I’ve admit I’d barely heard of before.
I’ll note that this guy was the driving force behind the MMR vaccine. And worked on numerous other vaccines. What was the outcome?
Until Wakefield comes along.
Then came the death threats and hate mail directed at Dr. Hilleman. He died before Wakefield was finally shown to be a Person of the Lie.
All is not lost:
The irony, as it continues to burn, is while Dr. Hilleman’s work continues to save children’s lives, Wakefield (along with his willfully ignorant followers) continues to achieve the exact opposite.
[Laraine Newman]
Wow! That’s terrific Baby!
[/Laraine Newman]
Meanwhile Wakefield is known to all and lives in a gloriously pretty house while Hilleman remains essentially anonymous. Disgusting.
Now, now. You are messing up the concern trolling.
(I had almost forgotten about that photo - its amazing for how long they thought it was a great idea.)
It wouldn’t be the fucking Curlcoat Show if she hadn’t hijacked the OP to her pet topic.
They’re also known to send authors of pro-science books for parents death threats, rape threats, and assault threats; post those threats on social media; and send college presidents letters demanding said author be fired from her teaching position.
Ask me how I know.
For more irony, do a YouTube search on Maurice Hilleman. You’ll find outtakes of a public TV interview he did some years ago in which he joked with his hosts about his vaccine work having created the AIDS virus. Of course, antivaxers have seized on that throwaway line to insist that yes, Hilleman and Merck Pharmaceuticals are responsible for creating AIDS, injecting cancer into people, worldwide genocide, cheating on their final exams etc.
Fun stuff.
We’ve been called the most disgusting names since the book was published. I’ve been accused of being a Nazi and funded by the pharm companies so often I’ve lost track. A friend of ours is a law professor. She received threats at work from an anti-vax ninny.
I think my favorite was the time one of them called me a ghost writer. No really.
And then there’s Dr. Offit (the man who wrote the foreword to our book). He can’t can’t tour because he gets death threats:
I had a reporter at the New York Times tell me she won’t interview the man because he’s considered too polarizing. I think that’s like saying you won’t interview a noted historian documenting slavery because it may offend KKK members.
Ugh. And sadly this is par for the course for the anti-vaxx crowd. These are not just a few isolated incidents or loudmouthed youtube commenters being brats, this is standard antics for the anti-vaxx crowd. They act all pleasant and like they actually just care about the children but then turn around and show a level of nasty behavior in private. Every now and then a bit slips through their facade - such as with the ‘Thanksgiving’ photoshop work or Jenny McCarthy hinting at mob violence against Amanda Peete.
JFK buffs will shout and bitch at you, 911 truthers talked big about how they’d act like zamfpolit once they were in charge but for the most part they did nothing but run their mouths*. But from the anti-vaxx crowd there is an almost constant stream of attacks, dirty tricks, and threats.
Wait, I understood you to say that the AVMA etc knew that the old vaccine schedule was harmful before Dr Dodds essentially took it public, but now it sounds like you are saying they didn’t?
The members didn’t bother passing it forward very well, if at all, until it became public knowledge. And since Dr Dodds is on the internet, I imagine far more than breeders know. Not to mention that many breeders pass this on to their buyers.
Yes, we have established that - it isn’t germane here.
It does contradict you in that he recommends the same schedule for adult dogs that Dr Dodds does, not the old annual one, because “as many veterinarians are realizing, over-vaccination can actually jeopardize a dog’s health and even life. Side effects can cause skin problems, allergic reactions and autoimmune disease.”.
And, it’s been shown that there is no threat to the population health when boosters are given far less often than annually.
I have not been talking about any sort of immediate reaction to a vaccination, I’m talking about long term damage to auto immune systems brought on by vaccinating far more often than is needed. I have no idea what percentage of the population ends up with a long term or late onset health problem due to having been boosted every year, or because they got 7 ways every two weeks as puppies, but it’s kind of immaterial because not doing those things isn’t going to affect the population as a whole.
I am clearly not a moderator and I mean this with all due respect, but could everyone just shut the fuck up now about animal vaccinations? Go start your own thread if you simply must talk about it; this one is about people vaccinations.
Thank you.
Let’s see: Offit is (according to Wikipedia) “the Maurice R. Hilleman Professor of Vaccinology, Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania, Chief of the Division of Infectious Diseases, and the Director of the Vaccine Education Center at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia. He has been a member of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. Offit is also a Founding Board Member of the Autism Science Foundation (ASF).” He is the inventor of a lifesaving rotavirus vaccine.
But the Times reporter won’t interview a physician with those distinguished credentials because it might stir up a fuss among antivax dingbats?
She needs to find another line of work.* Maybe public relations.
*Unfortunately, one of the best reporters covering the vaccine “controversy”, Trine Tsouderos, quit the Chicago Tribune to go to work for a health care think tank.
Someone’s not afraid of Dr. Offit thankfully.
Here he is with the guts to advocate against religious exemptions.
But then how will curlcoat get the attention she so desperately craves?
Paul Offit is a hero. He continues to advance vaccine science and education in the face of death threats and threats on his family, and attempts to get him fired from his position. He co-developed a vaccine for a virus that still kills more than 500K children a year, and sold the rights to the proceeds. Only in the deranged psychotic world of the pro-child-death anti-science anti-vaccine lunatics would he be considered a “polarizing figure.”