To be fair, some of my best and most intelligent students in college intro classes have been home-schooled. But I know the subset of home-schooled you mean: the ones who have been drilled by dogmatic parents into a particular mindset and never learned how to argue or discuss an issue rationally. To them, “debate” just means using either aggressive or evasive statements to avoid confronting anything that challenges their mindset.
In general, though, it’s an insult to home-schooled students to compare them to curlcoat as far as logical reasoning and intelligent debate goes.
Sure, sure. I don’t mean home-schooled, I mean home-school home-schooled, you know? The ones where they’re either way into LARPing or the bible, those home-schooled people.
Let’s just stop interacting with Curlcoat as there’s clearly no point in doing so. The answers to her questions in this thread are there for anyone who cares to find them. Anyone else with any intelligent questions ought to be welcome to ask them.
This has been a useful thread for me to collect tips and ammunition against some people I think I will have some conversations along these lines with in the future. Most Dopers have their uses.
I already responded to the 10 year follow up (I note that you all expect me to read every post here, but don’t bother to read mine) but it wasn’t clear that the MS/hep B connection was something that happened years down the road and not right away.
OK, great! Would have been nice if someone had said that months ago instead of just assuming I must be anti-vax.
Now, how would I have known this? Your post here is the first one to actually say that anyone at all is studying the long term impact of childhood vaccinations. Not that you provided any cites, but my interest in the subject doesn’t require that.
No, that is your interpretation. I said I would have concerns about the current schedules and would want to find out what the current research was. Just as I did with the dogs and the cat. If I had waited for my vet to tell me about the new vaccine protocols there, I’d still be waiting, over ten years later. Are you telling me that you think that every pediatrician in the country is totally up to date on everything and that parents should be completely uninvolved in their children’s care, blindly following what the all mighty doctor says?
Really? My original observation was that it had been proven that over vaccination of pets was resulting in long term illnesses, so maybe doing so in children was why there has been a rise in auto-immune problems there. How is that significantly different? It’s not of course, but you have fallen into the same trap as many others, which is believing the interpretations of others, such as that bullshit about “well then, which vaccination would you not get for your kid?” That had nothing to do with it because at that point, no one had bothered to say whether or not anyone had done any studies at all on the long term affects of any of them. Hell, all LavenderBlue could bother to say was “I WROTE A BOOK AND IMPORTANT PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS GOOD”. OK, great, how does that apply to my question?
No. I said that there are many posters whose automatic response was to assume I was an anti-vaxer and jump all over me without any thought to actually considering what I’d said. No one has provided any cites to show that my original observation is “weak or factually unsupported”. My simple observation was overwhelmed by factually unsupported assumptions, paranoia and just plain assholishness. To date, as I said above, this is the first time any poster has actually addressed what I’ve actually said and not what was assumed.
Nope. None of the cites provided said much if anything about the long term affect of pumping kids full of vaccinations starting at birth (hell, we don’t even do that to puppies). One did say that to study that would take years and unknown resources, and you are now saying that someone looked at the hep vaccination and whether it would cause MS in the long run. That’s it. If you think there has been another cite saying anything else about the long term affects, please let me know as I either missed it or misunderstood it. Otherwise, you all are the ones with the smug conceit of “we told you X, so you should just believe it”.
Is there any way at all that you can be brought to understand that kids are not being “pumped full of vaccinations” nowadays, because present-day vaccination schedules deliver far less antigens overall than they did back when you and I were kids?
This has been explained to you something like ten times now, and you still can’t even grasp it. You apparently either don’t understand or don’t remember any information you’ve been given if it’s not what you want to hear.
Consequently, you repeat the same misinformation over and over again, and then pretend that people aren’t responding to you or are unfairly picking on you.
[QUOTE=curlcoat;16301776 Hell, all LavenderBlue could bother to say was “I WROTE A BOOK AND IMPORTANT PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS GOOD”. OK, great, how does that apply to my question?
[/QUOTE]
You arrogant nitwit. You lazy birdbrain. You deliberately dim idiot. You numskull. You ignorant, blathering, useless, smug, dolt. You toadheaded, daft, vacuous, borish, gullible, sophmoric, deliberately obtuse imbecile.
YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE.
Like half a dozen others I pulled up numerous resources to help prove you wrong. I will, once again, give you the best resource I have found on this subject, one that will answer all your stupid questions.
Curlcoat is too stupid to understand what the word antigen means. That’s the fundamental problem.
For everyone else:
A vaccine is composed of many substances. The antigen is the part of the vaccine that creates the immune reaction. The immune reaction is what produces immunity. When we use vaccines, we create immunity without forcing people to suffer from actual diseases that kill people like hib, pertussis, pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria.
Vaccines are a miracle. An astonishing human achievement.
It literally amazes me to read books on history and realize that we are no longer in danger of getting smallpox and risking a one in three chance of death. I find it almost deliciously unreal that no one in many developed nations get measles and SSPE or diphtheria where you could literally choke to death or hib where babies would have be intubated in a hospital as part of standard care or polio which was not only paralyzing but incredibly painful.
How anyone could fear a needle more than the risk of tetanus or pertussis or mumps is baffling.
Actually, I think we underestimate how much antivax sentiment arises from a fear of hypodermic needles (I thought the official word for this was belonephobia, but I am now informed that a more precise term is trypanophobia, or even aprilophobia). Supposedly ten percent of the population has a serious fear of needles. I’ve run into this before from antivaxers, but few acknowledge it (just as many needle phobics avoid physicians so they won’t have to deal with this aspect of health care).
My father (who was a family doc) was a master of the painless injection. A close second is my current dentist. Her technique involves topical numbing of the injection site, then hiding the hypodermic apparatus behind her leg until the last possible moment and bringing it up to the target out of your line of sight, ultimately resulting in a barely perceptible prick of pain.
It beats being sedated or unconscious, with the potential for complications from those drugs. Just like momentary pain/discomfort of an injection beats being miserably sick, hospitalized, risking permanent complications or death from vaccine-preventable diseases.
I’m defintely afraid of needles. Needles and heights are two major fears for me.
But I don’t let my fear of needles get in the way of my physical health. I get stuck whenever the doctor says I need to. Heck, I even donate blood. But I have never, even once, seen the needle in my arm at the blood bank.
Two of the coolest feelings in the world are feeling the tube get warm as it fills with my blood and the coolness of the saline in my body when I did double red.
This. I used to get IVs every week for a while and the phobia never got any better. That’s how I know it’s a true phobia. That doesn’t stop me from getting needed boosters or having my blood drawn when it’s needed. I just need someone to distract me. “Hey look! A kitty!” works. Even if I know there’s no possible way for there to be a kitty, I will look for it because that means I’m not looking at the needle.
I can’t even watch them bring the needles in the room, that’s how bad it is.
Yes, I have seen it said that kids get fewer antigens now than I did during the Ice Age. It is somewhat difficult to believe when I only got three vaccinations and apparently kids today get as many as 24 prior to two years of age. However, that is beside the point - I used the word “vaccination” and since there hasn’t been any studies - at least that anyone has cited here as yet - on the long term affects, it isn’t at all a certainty that it would be the antigens that are causing any problems.
As an aside, if I only got smallpox, polio and DPT, how could it be that I got more antigens if I didn’t get anything at all for hepatitis, measles, mumps or flu? This may have been addressed at one point but I don’t remember seeing it.
Look bitch, I’ve been really patient with your ego and your general assholishness on the subject. I even decided to be nice and didn’t ask what the hell you were doing when your two year old ran amok in your house destroying things. But then you pull something like this. First off, your first cite you have to know is completely worthless WRT the subject at hand, as well as you expecting me to dig thru all of that to figure you just what point you are trying to make there. But I’m quite sure you’ll come along later and claim I won’t look at facts because I didn’t want to spend days following links on that long page, wondering just what the hell your purpose for posting the cite was.
And second, the comments I made regarding Hep B and MS was in response to Kimstu’s cite, which you would know if you’d get your head out of your ass and stop being such insecure dipshit on this subject. Looking at what you post here, it’s no fucking wonder you end up in flame wars with people elsewhere, because you start them. You just can’t wait to prove how superior you are, which OK whatever, but automatically attack just because a question sounds to you like anti-vax? That is not someone comfortable in their “expertise”.
Just shut the fuck already Curlcoat. This board is devoted to fighting ignorance while you are clearly devoted to spreading it. How many times do people have to answer your stupid questions before you finally understand the answers?
This is sort of why Kolga and I wrote our book: because we were tired of spending hours answering the same questions and making the same point over and over again.
The long term effects of vaccines are that kids aren’t getting sick or dying from vaccine preventable diseases. In the book we talk about infant mortality rates. Until the development of widespread infant vaccination such rates were horrifying.
To take but one example, that of diphtheria, until the development of the vaccine:
To give another example, that of hib or meningitis:
I swear to god you ask the dumbest questions and then expect to be spoonfed the answers. When people take the time to explain the answers to you, you simply repeat the same stupid questions again.
There is no evidence linking vaccines to asthma:
Or autism:
Children today who are lucky enough to be vaccinated are healthier as a result. They are not dead from hib or diphtheria. They aren’t paralyzed from polio, mentally retarded from rubella, deaf from measles, blinded by smallpox or sterile from mumps.
We know you hate children so you don’t give a fuck. But given that most vaccine preventable diseases are contagious you might to at least shut the fuck up if only out of self preservation.
To be more specific: as of 1960, vaccines given to young children contained 3,217 immunogenic proteins and polysaccharides (antigens). Most of that total was contained in a single vaccine, for pertussis. The smallpox vaccine had about 200 such antigens.
Today, the total number of antigens in the entire vaccine schedule up to age two is 315.
You cannot convince the willfully ignorant of anything. Stop trying. You cannot win this one. She eats this stuff up while you will become more frustrated with her deliberate idiocy. Just put her on your ignore list; you *will *feel better. Think of it as getting a vaccination.
Now, could we please return to the OP’s regularly scheduled programming?
Sometimes we do & say these thing not to convince the nutbar, but to be certain that the nutbar gains no converts and those who are on the fence can see the nutbar’s ignorance & humiliation.
Local press is saying some US states already mandate (or rather, encourage by banning you from school or pre-school without it) immunisation, which surprises me. Mississippi, West Virginia and Washington, apparently.
