Maybe America Is Hated Because We Help So Much

Great Debates
41

You know, your post title might have something there. I learned in a psychology class that very often, people who were down and out and who were helped up by a benefactor who was wealthy grew to resent him. It has something to do with self image and such. Then there is that saying, which started in the 80s that ‘no good deed goes unpunished’ that might have something to it.

Still, there is the Christian belief of ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ and the one about casting your bread upon the waters to have it returned tenfold to you. Maybe there is a right and a wrong way to help the down and out.

I know a guy who helped people get jobs where he worked and most of those whom he helped turned on him, as he was the manager. Yet another guy used to run around town now and then, dropping off little packets of food stuffs at homeless camps when the people were gone. He just shoved them in their tents and left and they liked him.

There has been a major debate, actually started by the Star Trek First Contact type of theory, that giving nations technology that they have not earned, nor understand and are not used to is a bad thing because the first thing they will do is abuse it. We’ve seen that happen several times. Like, we provided Saudi Arabia with tons of technology, put in oil wells, paid them a fair price for their oil and as soon as they could, they violently pushed us out, took over the wells and started screwing us over the oil prices. We basically raised them from being a bunch of squabbling dessert tribes to a wealthy nation and they turned on us.

Japan seems to be one of the few nations who, even though we defeated them in WW2, we treated them well and assisted their recovery and they have not tried to bite us back. We fed and assisted China during several wars they had and they’re always trying to find some way to cause us trouble, while keeping ways open to get our technology.

But, we’re a mixed people with memories of our own being treated badly and we cannot stop helping out. Billions are probably alive and well today because we got involved. How many more thousands would have starved in Ethiopia had out shipments of food stopped?

But then again, our problems come with the governments of those nations, like in Ethiopia. We got the food and medications there and the government helped itself to the best of everything, sold much of what was left and then gave the leavings to the starving people it was intended for in the first place. So perhaps it is only a few powerful people who turn the masses against us for their own enrichment. Like we freed the Ayatollah Hulmany (SP) from prison and got him back into power and he was all pleased with us as we helped him out but once there, he decided we were infidels and restored his power by turning against us and getting the Moslems there to hate us also. He no longer needed us and knew our powerful influence would take away the power he wanted over his people, so he made sure they were turned against us.

Perhaps we need to be firmer with the power bases of the nations we help. We helped Castro get into power and when he turned on us, we backed right down, when we should have gone right in and kick his ass, set up a temporary government until the folks could elect their own officials and then back out, as we have done before.

Perhaps people hate us in the world because they are taught to do so.

We pumped millions into France during WW2 and afterwards Charles DeGuale (SP), their great military leader/president decided that he was not going to repay us one thin dime and did not. We let it go, which made him look good and us look like fools and the French still insult Americans in France today, even though we saved their butts.

Leaders through propaganda can and have easily instructed people to hate us, even while they eat our food, survive due to our medicines and are protected by our guns.

It is not always the people who hate us, but the leaders and then they persuade the people to do so. That is easy when you control the news and information sources or use religion to control the population. In one small war we entered over the years, the news media played up big protests in the streets about the Ugly Americans and when the soldiers came home, they told of being treated well by the people who wanted them there, of watching news people deliberately rounding up protesters to ‘reenact’ protests and of the local government forcing people to protest against us. (Do you really thing all of those protesters in Cuba for Elian actually gave a turd? Castro ordered them to be rounded up and protest. Government soldiers even had stacks of flags and signs to hand out. Any ‘illegal’ American tourist can tell you that in Cuba, the peso sucks and the nation runs on American Dollars, which are more valuable.)

So, perhaps it is not the people after all, but the governments forcing them to hate us.

42

carnivorousplant wrote:

Yeah, but little do “they” know that American women, no matter how scantily clad they are, still won’t put out.

Not that I’m bitter.

43

This is precisely the point I’m trying to make, Bill. It seems to me that you’re fixated on the following logic:

  1. America is the most beautiful, perfect, shining, Godly utopia one can imagine, even in theory, and all people on the face of the earth can think of nothing but our beauty and perfection when they envision America.

  2. If someone hates us, it must somehow be that they hate all that is good. Either they’re crazy and hate good things, or they have a neurotic need to hate people who are nice to them, or they’re jealous because they aren’t as good as we are, or whatever.

But the real situation is more like this:

  1. The terrorists think that the US is bad.

  2. Ergo, they want to kill Americans.

  3. Why do they think the US is bad? If nothing else, they define “bad” a little differently than you do. For example, they probably think it’s “bad” to support Israel. They think it’s “bad” to have non-Muslim troops stationed in Saudi Arabia.

You see? You want to kill the bad terrorists, and they want to kill the “bad” Americans. The logic is the same, more or less: the difference is in how “bad” is defined.

This is, of course, entirely separate from questions of whether some (not all, but some) of the points on which the terrorists might consider the US to be bad- for example, installing the Shah in 1953- really were bad things to do.

Incidentally, WB, what is your take on attacks on civilian targets during times of war? If Afghanistan had declared war on the US before blowing up the WTC, would your rage be any less?

-Ben

44

The Terrorists had to be instructed by someone they trusted to learn to hate us and that person hates us because we probably prevented him from doing someting nasty or threatened his religion by bringing in something like free knowledge for all or civil rights. In the middle east, they could hate us because we believe that women are not posessions and jail our married men who beat up their own wives. A Muslim has the right to kick his wife around if she angers him and the right to tell her what to wear and how to act.

45

Well…You still don’t get it. Stop searching explanations in positive element (wealth, freedom, etc…)

I won’t begin a debate over the legitimacy of US actions in the middle east and more generally muslim countries, you probably wouldn’t believe me if you aren’t somewhat familiar with US present and past policies in this part of the world.

But at least you must accept the fact that muslim fundamentalists hate the US because they think that the US did a lot of wrong and evil things in “arab” countries. Not everybody has a positive opinion of the US. Actually, a lot of people have a very negative view of the US.

From their point of view, there is no doubt that the Palestinians are right (their land has been stolen, they are bombed everyday, there has been massacres in refugees camp, etc…I don’t intend to debate about it, once again…just to give their point of view), so Israelians are evil baby-killers (litteraly). Hence, the US who massively support Israel is evil.

The recent history of Iran has already been explained. The US have installed and backed an evil dictator. Hence the US is evil.

The US armed Irak at war against Iran. So doing, they fed a war between two muslims nations. Hence the US is evil.

Saddam Hussein was the proud leader of a muslim country. For this reason, the US hated him and wanted Irak to become again a weak nation submitted to their rule. Hence the US is evil. They choose as a pretext the invasion of Koweit. Actually, Koweit was a nation created out of the historical Irak territory to keep the oil reserves under control by the british (hence the UK is evil). So, Irak invasion was legitimate. Hence the US attack was evil. Koweit was anyway a corrupted oligarchy. So, Irak was even more right. And the US even more evil. And actually the US (apart from eliminate the proud Hussein) wanted mainly to keep oil reserves in Koweit under control. The US are greedy. Hence the US is evil. A lot of innocent civilians were killed in the bombing. The US is very evil. Since the US (apart from some bombings killing some more people) have maintened an embargo : there is quite no food, quite no drugs, etc…little children are dying by thousands. The US is very, very evil.

By the way, the US forces were based in Saudi Arabia. This is a holy land where no unbeliever should stay, especially not to attack muslims. The US are evil. Anyway, Saudi Arabia is ruled by a very corrupted and repressive royal family, which has been backed by the US for a very long time. Hence, the US is evil. Actually, since this land the US keep indirectly under control is especially holy, the Us is especially evil.

Morroco is a monarchy. The king (and more especially the former king Hassan II) was corrupted. He killed and imprisonned the opposants. More especially, believing he’s the commander of the faith (which he is actually not), he repressed the fundamentalist muslims. He is evil. He is backed by the US (and France). Hence the US (and France) is evil.

The fundamentalists won the elections in Algeria. The Algerian government cancelled the elections. Repressed the the muslim movements. He’s backed by France (and the US). So France (and the US) is evil.

Turkey has a secular governement. Despite their victory during the elections, the army and the secular parties denied to the muslim parties the right to actually govern the country. Turkish government is evil. Turkey is a close ally of the US. Hence the US is evil.

Should I mention that Egyptian government is a traitor? They came to an agreement with the evil Israel. They don’t support the good Palestinians as they should.They repressed the fundamentalists muslim movements. Who urged them to commit these evil acts? The US, who is now a friend of these traitors. Hence the US is evil.

There are certainly some more like that…

Now, on the overall :

The US (or western) oil (or whatever else) companies are depriving the muslims countries from the oil (or some other product) production benefits. The US are greedy. The US is evil. The US only gives back some of these benefits to the corrupt governements they installed/are backing. They US is evil.

The western civilization corrupted the muslim world with money, with their pornography, atheism, with their unislamic values. The western countries are corruptors. The western world is evil.

The muslim world is enthralled by western countries, for their own petty interests. The western countries are the cause of most of the sufferings, war, etc…in the muslim world. The western world is evil.

The western world colonized the muslim countries. It dispised and still dispise the muslims, consider them as inferiors. The western world is evil.
I know I presented that in a very caricatural way, but it was in order to make my point clear. I certainly forgotten a lot of other elements. But I suppose you understood what I mean. The fundamentalists don’t hate the US because the US are rich, free, or whatever. They hate the US because, from their point of view, the US is evil.

And concerning the suggestion to overthrown the governments, though in a lot of case, they could need a major improvment, most of them are actually fighting islamic terrorism on their soil, and a lot of people have been killed by the islamic terrorists in these countries also (there has been countless massacres and thousands of victims in Algeria, for instance).

46

You also apparently don’t understand that the US could be hated for something else than his positive values. You should seriously reconsider this belief.

47

Can we get a site on that, please?

48

Why put “probable” into the picture? The history of US involvement in the Middle East is not a secret; we know what we’ve done to piss them off. Do a little studying and find out, instead of making wild guesses based on stereotypes.

(Hint #1: It’s not because the United States is a great and beautiful country and they’re all jealous.)
(Hint #2: A lot of the reasons are because the US government has been f**king with their local governments for the last 40 years.)

And your source for this information is…?

49

UniversalGuy, I think you should check this thread

50

I got an e-mail today from kimstu that is a fair bit of text based on a talk given by Michael Klare, a professor at Smith College, part of the Five College System in Massachusetts. Since I don’t know what the copyright issue is with it, I won’t post it all here. But, he basically argues that the above issue is the main reason why Osama bin Laden has it in for the U.S. He gives a brief history of the whole U.S.-Saudi connection. And he summarizes the issue from their point-of-view this way:

By the way, although I was unable to find the text of this article on the web to link to, here is another article by Klare that concentrates less on the “Why?” and more on the “What should we do?” aspect: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/13/justice/

51

Ah, the rewards of diligence! Here is a link to the full text of Klare’s article on “Asking Why” (although the web server at Hampshire College seems slower than molasses in January when I tried it):

http://www.hampshire.edu/news/responses/askingwhy.shtml

52

We have several books written by American women who went over to Middle Eastern nations as wives to Muslim husbands and were treated by the husband like feces, and one case made the national headlines when she had to kidnap her own children to get them away from the fanatical husband. It seems like there are two sets of Islamic beliefs, those which are free and easy and those which are absolute authority.

Why is it that each time we discuss America, someone just has to try to convince others that the States is the Evil Empire, who has been doing devious and nasty things to the other, poor, foolish and innocent nations of the globe? Our hands are not clean, but neither are the hands of most of the other Prime Nations of the world.

Have we not had the French send spies here and sink a Green Peach ship that was protesting their illegal nuclear testing?

While we were shipping tons of medical, weapons and food supplies to Israel, did we not catch Israeli spies here?

Has not Israel been dicking us around in peace talk after peace talk?

Have we not sent aide to virtually every nation in the world and shown up with picks and shovels, supplies and food at almost every major disaster? Do not Americans contribute the greatest amount globally towards charities for other nations? Does America not provide close to 1/5 of the global food supply? What nation is always called on for help aside from America? What nation gets the most immigrants and refugees regularly from the global community? What nation created the Peace Corps and sponsors the majority of the beneficial research and organizations for the global scientific community? What nation promptly picks up the pieces for the enemies they defeated during any real war and helps them recover? What other nation has as long a history of fare play as America does?

The middle eastern nations hate us because we threaten their religion with our basic freedom policies and the simple fact that we have the might and the money to enforce them.

Has anyone ever thought that the biggest mistake we might have made is in giving under developed nations with fanatical religious beliefs technology they have not earned, grown up with or even understand too fast and too often which has created an unbalance between the traditional lifestyle and modern ones? Look at Africa, where a person may visit a modern city with all of the luxuries, then go home to a mud hut with a stick fire and dirt floors, wearing traditional robes made out of modern materials, eat out of aluminum pans but have to draw water from a muddy hole in the ground. The people are caught in a culture shock.

No other nation in the world provides as much foreign aid as we do and we can be resented for our wealth and advanced technology.

Even in Japan, one of our closest allies, while they have all of the modern accouterments, the women still speak a slightly different version of the language than the men and the men have traditional, male exaggerated roles from years ago that they live in. (I have Japanese pen pals which have explained this to me.) The Japanese were pushed into modernization after WW2.

Has it even dawned on anyone out there that other nations might be jealous because of our advanced state and because our influence has changed their lifestyles from roaming around in desserts as nomads and periodically fighting each other, to more and more people settling down in cities and wanting international luxuries? Hard line traditionalists resent this because when we introduce technology, we introduce education and open up vast lines of information. A dessert nomad, once concerned with trade, his herds, his family, status in his tribe and his world consisting of only the desert suddenly gets knowledge about air conditioning, books he never knew existed, foods he had never thought of, more water supplies than he dreamed of, light weight, modern camping supplies that make his heavy, cotton tents obsolete, and luxuries like he has never dreamed of. Instead of telling time by the sun, he gets a $5 watch that not only tells him the time, but has an adding machine in it, a place for phone numbers, lights up at the touch of a button, has a timer, an alarm and can be set for time zones.

So, the great nomadic tribes start to vanish because they want the goodies and the Traditionalists resent this because it usually has been that those with the most smarts, usually the rulers and the religious heads, lorded it over the dumber population, capitalizing on their ignorance, but now that is ending because free knowledge is all over the place. Why kill and slaughter a goat for supper, a lengthy, messy, stinky process, when you can buy the prepared meat in a container for a few dollars and it tastes better? Why sit in the dirt, with sand crawling up your undies when you can buy collapsible, space age, light weight camping chairs and tables? Why rub wood together or use flint and steel to light a fire when a Bic lighter is easier.

Heck, for that matter, why cook over stinky dried camel dung when you can carry along enough cooking gas in small cylinders to make 50 cooking fires and it burns cleaner, easier and hotter? Why turn into a withered, creaky old fart at 45 or 50 when with modern foods and medications you can be spry and happy well into your 70s?

Great, right?

Not for the leaders who suddenly find their people getting a real big helping of the Outer World and who start wanting things and doing things and getting too smart for their own good. That camel seller no longer is willing to sell his camels for a few bucks because now he knows the value of a buck and he wants a portable TV for his home and you, the leader, can’t screw him anymore in prices. You can’t hold the people down with religion anymore because now they see billions living life differently and probably better.

So, the best way to handle the situation is to start reviling the nations who have all of the goods, who started the whole culture change and the best way to do that is to start enforcing the local religion and finding morons willing to get fanatical about it to do the dirty work. Anything fun and modern is Sinful! Keep the people stupid and obedient so you start cutting down on and censoring the amount of information they get or playing on their religious beliefs by damning the sources of the information.

As a rule, populations, when left alone, usually are quite agreeable with each other, no matter the color, race or religious preferences, until the leaders get involved and then the people have to be carefully taught to hate specific people and races and given reasons why. Usually those reasons are generously provided by the rulers. You can spot that in the last 25 years of turmoil in Africa, in China starting with Mao T’sung, and Vietnam preceding the Vietnam war.

People in power, when their power base is threatened, will always convince any ignorant masses that the threat is Bad For Them and they should Hate It and Fight Against It. Especially in third world, underdeveloped nations.

53

**

Most unfortunate of all is that the Green Peach had an entire world inside. There was this grasshopper who spoke like a toff, and a spider lady with boots, and…

**

But you find the same thing in the American South. And come to think of it, the South is still being pushed into modernization!

**

“You’re roamin’ through desserts with a spoon with no name…”

**

Jeez, my watch doesn’t do that! Mom, why do the nomads get all the good stuff?

**

As opposed to America, where it works the other way around.

**

Cite?

**

Mao Tse-Tung. T’sung is from Mortal Kombat.

Anyway, cite?

-Ben

54

What are you talking about?

55

He was talking about gender roles in Japan. The American South has very strong gender roles as well. The crack at “modernization” was a reference to the fact that not only is the South economically depressed, they tend to bring it on themselves by voting for governors who do things like mock Darwin by shambling around like an ape at press conferences.

-Ben

56

What are you all or, rather, y’all talking about? I live in the deep south and there certainly are no traditional gender roles here. Well, correction, there are gender roles, but about as many and as scattered as anywhere else in the States where women and men prefer to have them, liking back to the stereotypes of the 1950s and 60s. Japan is the only nation where, if you are learning the language, you are encouraged to learn the male dialect because of the difference.

Interestingly enough, in their cartoons, more women are placed in hero roles than here in the US.

(Looks with startled eyes at Green Peach statement) Sorry about that. Green Peace is what I meant.

As for the ‘populations left alone’ section. Open your eyes. No population in history has ever risen up into war unless provoked or driven into it by leaders and some have had to use force. In WW2, the average German was not interested in going to war, so it took a major campaign by Hitler to get things rolling and he had to kill off people to do it. Japan was not interested in war, but the Old Guard Generals were and they had to lie to the Emperor and the population to get there.

Your average Chinese person has no interest in war if left alone, and the same with the average American, Britisher, Frenchman and Australian. People have to be told that they need to go to war and others (the enemy) have to be told to commit an aggressive act. A race raised in war will be warlike but one raise not in war will be more agreeable.

Rulers always decide to cause or respond to war. History shows that most wars were started for personal gain by rulers and later, just over personal opinions by rulers.

b]Ben** where are you from? Most of the South has stopped shambling around and kicking Darwin books into bonfires ages ago, though we still have a few dyed in the wool Baptists that would like to set us back a few hundred years in education and religion. I will say that just 10 years ago, some Baptist church here had a Big Rock and Roll record burning that almost went unnoticed by everyone else. They should have waited and had a Big Rap Record Burning instead. :slight_smile:

See, in Ireland it is catholic and Protestant, elsewhere it is Christian and Muslim, here it is Baptist and every other known religion of branch of religion.

(Affects Southern Drawl) Y’all knows whut ah mean, son? (Waves big stinky cigar butt around.) Naow, ghimmee that thar shot of Jim beam and git yore Yankee ass out of heah. :slight_smile:

57

Probably because each time America is discussed there are people who try to convince others that the States is the Good empire, who has been doing only nice things to the other ignorant, greedy and evil nations of the globe…

58

I liked this piece that appeared today in the NY Post, but was originally from the Sunday Times of London: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/23/stiusausa01024.html