I would question this. Foreman at his peak fought at about 220 pounds, around the same as Ali, Frazier, and the other major contenders.
I think he might be the best of all time. At his peak he lost only two fights and pretty much dominated the rest, including 4 fights against Frazier and Norton.
Foreman didn’t have much of a peak. Early on his trainers tried to keep his weight down under 225 pounds, a poor strategy that that wore him out in training, which he obviously didn’t do enough of. But his proportions were still the same, wide hips and shoulders, thick heavy bones and joints, layered with muscle. He didn’t know how to take advantage of that when he needed it though, he would swing wildly and miss at times, ending up off balance as he did against Ali. That early career was brief, and the loss to Jimmy Young shows how vulnerable he was because of poor conditioning and training. His greatest fight in the first part of his career was against Ron Lyle, where he had to get up off the canvas to win. That was the first I recall where he showed an understanding of balance that made him a deadly puncher later when he renewed his career. He had a spotty record early on, no great fights, he was much too big for Frazier and Norton never had the kind of skill level of the great heavyweights (as a matter of fact Norton was given a heavyweight title but never won a title fight.) Foreman was a much better trained and dedicated fighter in his later career, but he was fighting age then, Holyfield was too fast and skilled for him. His loss to Morrison was a return to his earlier days, going into a fight unprepared.
I don’t buy that. Frazier was the same weight as Foreman but several inches shorter, which implies more muscle and bone (unless you’re claiming he was out of shape?)
I disagree about Norton. Norton fought Ali 3 times, winning once and losing the other 2 by close and controversial decisions. He also lost a very close split decision to Holmes. He was clearly up there with the greatest of that era. But he was crushed twice by Foreman.
Mayweather better hire a MMA guy for sparring. Maybe someone that’s recently retired?
Mayweather needs to find out how a MMA fighter will adapt to the modified rules.
McGregor will still probably bring a few surprises.
The other thing I remember about that fight is that Holyfield clobbered Foreman with combinations that would have floored just about any other fighter, including some of the great ones with legendary chins. And yet Foreman, though he wobbled, continue to soldier on, puffy eyes and all.
You can see how he cuts the ring off and traps Joe Frazier, who was known as being a pretty crafty and elusive in the ring. As I recall there were also moments in their fights when it seemed like Foreman used Frazier’s aggression against him and set him up perfectly.
Ali was (unfortunately) among the toughest fighters and had an almost inhuman ability to absorb a punch and fight through pain. Of course we all know that tragic price he paid for that style of fighting.
It was that fight, though, that really changed the trajectories for both fighters. Ali went on to regain some of his lost glory and remained the people’s champion for the better part of the 1970s; Foreman began his long slow fade into oblivion before his renaissance more than a decade later. It’s indeed interesting how Foreman was sort of viewed, both by fight experts and casual fans, as some thuggish brute. But clearly, you look at how he rose to stardom and his first outstanding career in boxing, and then look at how he masterfully scripted his comeback and re-branded himself, that guy is a smart cookie. A boot-strapper. The interesting thing about it is, I bet if that fight had been in Madison Square Garden or in a conventional setting, Foreman probably KOs Ali or at least pummels him en route to a decision. In terms of having a single fight game plan, Ali’s victory might have been the best strategy ever carried into effect in the sport’s history. Marvin Hagler was also a master strategist - very high boxing IQ. You could also talk about guys like Julio Cesar Chavez, Calzhage and others.
I’ll have to break this down later. I’ll start with this:
We (boxing fans) consider Joe Frazier to be a great fighter. But in reality the only actual basis for that is his one win against Ali and the two determined but losing efforts in rematches. Otherwise Joe Frazier had no significant wins. His losses to Foreman aren’t significant at all. George was certainly wiping out the opposition at the time, but there wasn’t much of it until Ali re-entered the picture.
I’ll come back later to address his weight. Sometimes weight is a good way to compare fighters and punching power, but Foreman v. Frazier is not one of those cases.
There’s no need to do that at all – it’s a boxing match. It’s McGregor who needs to adapt, not Mayweather. But it probably would be wise to have Mayweather fight a boxer who has a rep for being a bit dirty, and perhaps he could bring in someone from a higher weight class. I doubt Mayweather needs my advice in training, though. LOL
That’s what I keep coming to: of all the boxers who faced Ali (arguably the best heavyweight from the mid-60s to the late 70s) Norton was the closest thing to kryptonite that Ali ever had.
I think most of that was simply Ali’s refusal to fight him again.
Besides for the loose ropes, Ali had this back-of-the-neck thing going. If you look at the Ali-Foreman fight - or any of Ali’s other fights that I’ve seen - when in close range Ali would reach around and put one glove on the back of his opponent’s neck and lean his weight on him. I believe this is against the rules but it wasn’t enforced for whatever reason. (IIRC, Frazier tried to make an issue of it before on of their fights.) This had the impact of wearing the other guy down, which gave Ali an increasing edge in the later rounds.
Frazier didn’t beat any all-time greats other than Ali. But he fought the leading fighters of his era and was only defeated by Ali and Foreman (twice each).
I don’t see it going past 4 or 5 rounds. I see Mayweather as having target practice and landing one combination after another. I don’t see Mayweather taking any meaningful punches.
Yep. And Vegas will make a bunch of money from people betting with their heart instead of their head.
I’ve already found three people who are willing to take McGregor** for even money. **I am so very delighted.
. . . sounds like the line someone would say at this point in a Rocky movie.
I sometimes think that, if Foreman had fought Ali during the second phase of his (Foreman’s) career, he would have won. Foreman wore himself out trying to knock Ali out. Foreman v2.0 would have paced himself and won by decision.
Before the layoff, Foreman as seen (and probably saw himself) as a huge, destructive force. He crushed the two men who had beaten Ali, Frazier and Norton, in a couple of rounds each. After the layoff, he was a fat guy who made cheeseburger jokes at his own expense. And he still had the punch to go with the genial image.
He was on the Tonight Show.
Johnny Carson (about Foreman’s next opponent): “Is he a good fighter?”
Foreman: “Gee, I sure hope not!”
And eventually Foreman went on to regain the heavyweight title, not with one of the huge swings he was known for earlier, but by plodding forward for ten rounds setting Moorer up with his jab, and then landing a right that traveled about eight inches.
A victory for the ages, and for fat, middle-aged men everywhere.
Regards,
Shodan
He started in the mid 60s and the heavyweight division was very weak with talent at that point. Once Ali was stripped of his title there wasn’t any serious competition. He did win the first fight with Ali, a remarkable accomplishment, certainly a reason to say Joe was a great boxer because it was not a fluke, but after that he never won a notable fight. Some people think the Ali fight took it out of him, he took a beating despite the win. Some people think he just didn’t have the motivation to fight anyone else but Ali. But his record just doesn’t compare with great champions and fighters in any division.
Now records aren’t the whole story here, and not my point either. My point is that George Foreman had a significant size advantage over the top heavyweights in the early part of his career. He didn’t have to weigh more to take advantage of that, but it would have helped him if he did. George has unusual proportions for a heavyweight boxer. He has long legs and arms, and wide hips and shoulders. The legs and hips lower his CG giving him better balance. That alone gives him a reach advantage from extended ability to lean forward while maintaining a solid base. His arms and shoulders add to that reach advantage in addition to being 2-4 inches taller than the leading heavyweights of the time. He was a full 4 inches taller than Joe Frazier, but in addition to that Joe was an inside fighter, often fighting from a tuck, head down bent at the waist, so his relative height was even less compared to Foreman. Joe used upper body movement as a defense but not much footwork. George Foreman was raining heavy punches at Frazier, on balance, outside of Frazier’s reach. Foreman wasn’t all that disciplined a fighter yet either, but he was young and very strong. Joe Frazier just never had a chance against him. After he took the title Frazier George would lose to clever fighters, against Ali and Jimmy Young he showed his lack of discipline in fighting, missing punches that took him off balance and wasting energy, and a lack of ring generalship. It was in the second part of his career that George developed discipline as a fighter. He shortened his punches and kept his balance, he entered fights with a strategy, he trained for stamina and paced himself, and he fought and won against big men. He still was taken by Evander Holyfield, Evander was just too fast for him, and tough enough to take what George could land. But he also lost to Morrison, seemingly a return to his old ways of entering a fight unprepared. His opponents of note were of similar caliber in both parts of his career but I think George was a better fighter in his second act, the opponents were bigger men and he still had to overcome age and inactivity to do it.
Right. A 49-0 boxer, universally seen as the best in the business vs a 0-0 boxer.
I never heard of such a thing. It’s a sham. While anything can happen in a combat match, outside of Mayweather sustaining a bad injury, he’s a sure winner.
I’m not dumb enough to bet anything I can’t afford to lose, but I’m up a lot of money over the years taking bets from people who bet on emotion rather than logic.
I would like to see a slight concession in this fight leaning toward MMA styles, maybe allow holding and hitting but no submission holds.
You would like to see it, but no way in hell would Mayweather ever sign up for that.
This arrangement works best for both men. For Mayweather it means keeping his perfect record, and for McGregor it means a huge payday. For the sport of boxing it’s a win as well because this should be one of the more watched fights we’ve seen in awhile.