I have virtually no experience in martial arts, but I coached 10 year olds in baseball for six summers. I’ve had them run into me full bore–they bounce off. I’ve had two of them leap on my–they bounce off. If we’re assuming that these are normal sized kids, I usually have at least a foot and well over 100 pounds on them (I’m a big boy). I’ve also once beeen (accidently) kicked full in the face by a 20 yo woman who had some training–I flinched a bit and bled a lot, but one shot from a kid, even with training, is unlikely to do more than this to me.
And, yes, you can catch them pretty easily. When they dodged if we played tag, I could still reach out with one hand and pull them off the ground. Heck, most practices started with me carrying four of them onto the field! I can’t do that with adults–I can do it with 10 year olds.
Also, a simple law of physics is that you cannot create more force than a combination of your mass moving at a speed–e.g. if you weight 75 pounds, you’ve got some serious limitations. Also, your muscles are really not developed much yet, you probably do have a lower pain-tolerance (and a higher likelihood of crying), no reach, etc. etc. etc.
If I had to do it (and were wearing a cup), I would take the kid on.
To Nurlman: Why take chances? If you really want to take a 10 year old kid down, get help.
If you’re married, ask your wife. If you’re not, get your parents or neighbors to help.
The 10 year old might take one of you down, but if there’s two or three of you, there’s a much better chance that one of you will get him (it’s a him right?).
Better yet, post your name, address and time for the takedown, and if we live close by, we’ll show up with knuckle dusters, etc.
No offense taken at all. However, I do have the testing on tape… including all breaks, weapons, kata, and sparring, not to mention, knowledge of the history and tradition of the art.
Yes, as a matter of fact, my instructor tested 6 of us for black belt that day and everybody’s test was pretty much the same (granted it varied on what the instructor thought were one’s weakest points). When I was done, I knew I had earned it.
That very well could have been the case, but I do remember a few instances where a FEW adults would not hold back on me. Yes, it was hard, but it did teach me to fight someone who was bigger and stronger than me.
-Dragwyr
“If God had meant for man to eat waffles,
he would have given him lips like snowshoes”
-Rev. Billy C. Wirtz
FIRST of all, I resent the tone and implication that I would place my children’s health and safety at risk. THAT’S bullshit. Second of all I disagree with you and Glitch. Seems like I am still allowed to do this.( Until Bush wins, anyway…) YOU both are assuming that in order to “WIN” a fight/confrontation, my 9 1/2 year old son has to render an opponent unconscious, as Glitch described in his street brawl story.
Sorry, but I have no fucking clue what they teach you in Tang Soo Do. ( Or, for that matter, what you are passing on to your students) In Tae Kwon Do, we are taught that the finest thing to do when threatened is run. The second finest thing to do is to defend yourself JUST to the degree that you can get away. My statement that one or two well placed blows would win is accurate, in the real world.
Talk about macho bullshit posturing. A fractured skull? Thank god my kid doesn’t read this board. So, we are all supposed to be so proud that you fractured a man’s skull using a brick wall? Tae Kwon Do is an art of self-defense, and safety, not smashing human being’s skulls into walls. You teach that to the kids at your do-jang? God help 'em.
If he could keep his wits about him ( and, my honest take is that he would most likely panic and forget his training), two well placed blows to an UNTRAINED adult would let my son get away un-assaulted. The concussive force delivered to the groin, kneecaps or solar plexus by a focused front-snap kick would be enough to let him escape an adult bent on hurting him.
If, on the other hand, my son is supposed to think that in having earned his black belt, he’s supposed to smash the adult’s head against the wall until his skull fractures ( breaks open ), then yeah, you guys are all right on the money. A small child would lose pitifully. Luckily, the discipline THEY are studying develops respect for others, and a realization that to flee is a fine response.
What was that about adults putting their kids at risk by letting them think they can fight an adult, as in the martial arts films?
I’d agree with your comments on tag sparring, however. They don’t learn to fight by doing that, they learn aim, speed, placement, and skill. Unfortunately, the only way to learn to fight is to fight.
Interesting, that I am writing this today. I’m going back tonight, to begin again my work on my first don.
Cartooniverse
If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel.
The OP was whether a 10 yr old could defeat an adult. As in a fight to the finish, so excuse me for answering the OP (the answer is still no).
If you read one of my posts further back you will not that it specifically says that a child could resist to a degree as to allow them to escape.
As for judging my fracturing a person’s skull, allow me to ask you this, bucko. Were you there? Do you know what my escape options were? Do you think I really wanted to stick around and fight a drugged up idiot with a knife? Try consider what you are going to say BEFORE you say it. I.e. open mouth and insert foot here.
Also, can we please try to avoid the game of taking one response and applying it to a different issue?
I didn’t say that kids should be learning how to fracture people’s skull. That is fiction you invented. My point is that two blows (other than lucky ones) are not going to drop a person period.
I didn’t say or imply that to “WIN” a confrontation a kid has to knockout his assailant. That is what the OP was about. The rest is your own fiction.
Did you read what he said? He was mugged, and stabbed twice in the back. We’re talking a life and death situation here. And he was wounded, so he was at a disadvantage in running away. In that situation I’m going to do whatever it takes to keep the assailant from killing me. That includes fracturing his skull, crushing his throat, poking his eyes, breaking joints… whatever it takes.
That doesn’t mean I advocate violence or killing. What it means is protecting my life and safety.
Reread what was said. He said nothing about people who enroll their kids in karate classes to learn balance and coordination, discipline, and self-defense. He’s talking about the exaggerated Hollywood image of the “Three Ninjas” type. That’s the “Home Alone” of the karate world.
I do agree that a good kick to the knee would probably disable an attacker enough for the kid to run away - a noble strategy. But if you’re talking about a blow for blow fight-it-out type of match like exemplified in movies, the kid is at a major disadvantage.
As far as the OP goes, I’m betting the kid could make him cry for mommy.
My point was that teaching kids that they are walking killing machines is hazardous to their well-being, because it may lead them into situations that are beyond their control. The same applies to adults, BTW, but the consequences usually are not so dire, and adults generally have somewhat better judgement than children.
And don’t take it as a given that your kid is going to disable a grown man with a kick to the knee, solar plexus, or groin. The groin shot has the best chance, but the other two are low-probability. The knee is much tougher than most people think, and I’d question the ability of a 10-year old to apply enough force to it to do any serious damage unless the situation was exactly right. And, the kick would have to be perfectly placed, AND the opponent’s leg would have to be fixed in place (the kick won’t do much good if it just causes his opponent’s leg to swing out). The solar plexus is a VERY hard target to reach for a 10-year old, especially with a kick. The end result of that attempt will probably be the kid grappling with the adult, and losing the option to run.
The correct response for any kid in a confrontation with an adult is to RUN AWAY. Any ‘training’ that pre-empts this impulse is adding to the kid’s risk.
For the record, I no longer teach kids under the age of 14 martial arts. I rarely accept anybody under the age of 16. I do not teach seperate classes for kids and adults. Everybody suffers equally under my iron rule (yes, that is a joke, but I have a bastard dojo owner reputation to live up to … see “What do we look like?” in MPSIMS). I stopped teaching kids simply because I wanted to focus on crime survival and very rigourous training, which is too intense for most parents to accept their children getting into. I have made a partnership with another local dojo who is a master at teaching kids. I send all of them to him. He recommends anybody who wants to learn crime survival to me (ultimately, he gets FAR more customers from me than I do from him), and also periodically brings me in for seminars for his dojo. It is a very nice arrangement. This has been my policy for the past 9 years.
“Killing Machines” was just a little hyperbole. But teaching them that they are good enough to take down an adult may lead to them staying in a confrontation long after they should have departed. Cartooniverse seems to think that his kid would have no problem quickly shattering a kneecap and then getting away. If the kid believes that, then if an agressive adult approaches him he may wait for the distance to close to go for the big kneecap strike, rather than turning and running at the first opportunity. Once that distance has closed to striking range the kid is in big trouble.
The ease of shattering a kneecap is another myth. Kneecaps suffer a lot of abuse. They are there to protect the joint. They are not soft or easy to shatter. A direct kick to a kneecap is more likely to break the bones in your foot than break the kneecap.
What a fascinating response, over all. Well, you won’t believe this, but I am a devout pacifist. My kids dont learn TKD to fight, they learn it because they are South Korean, and it’s a great source of discipline, respect, excercise, etc.
Teaching a kid to flee an adult IS what they do in our Do Jang. And, of course, a kneecap is strong. I did’t say shatter, did I? I said, a good shot to it MIGHT let a child flee. Sadly, we are in agreement, but all so angry that it won’t quite come together.
Cartooniverse
If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel.
Glitch did ask where the killing machines comment and attitude came from. There ya go.I was simply responding to a comment made by Sam. I neither condone nor let my kids SEE those “hyper-Hong-Kong Kung Fu” types of films. It’s that very violent posturing and seeming invincibilty that I hate the most in the Martial Arts world.
And don’t preach to me about moviemakers. I am one. I understand more than you ever will the difference between real danger and filmed danger. How many times have YOU been shot at for the sake of a moment in a TV show or film? You chose the wrongest person to accuse of buying into movie violence and preaching it to their kid. Making entertainment for yokels like you is what I do for a living. I wanna show my kids grown men with surreal muscles throwing themselves through the air with grace and power? I’ll rent them “West Side Story”.
Cartooniverse
If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel.
“Wrongest person” ??? That’s what happens when I get so upset that I don’t carefully proofread. Sorry, all. That should have read, “wrong person”. Big difference between being disagreeable and being poorly spoken here.
Cartooniverse.
If you want to kiss the sky, you’d better learn how to kneel.
I wish somebody could tell me why I am continuing with this thread. Must be my sense of professionalism as Shihan.
Let’s review for a moment:
The OP asks about a 30 yr old attacking a 10 yr old black belt, and if the 10 yr old can feasiably combat the 30 yr old.
Cartoon states:
I object to this on several grounds.
First, it is clear that Cartooniverse doesn’t understand the nature of a real fight. Heck, he doesn’t even spar. So there are several errors here:
First. Cartoon lists of several critical stikes. Kneecap and groin, for example. However, in reality hitting this in a serious violent encounter is exceptionally difficult, and actually landing them is more a matter of pure luck.
Second. He equates seeing kids at tournaments to the results of a street fight. Again, this demonstrates his lack of understanding of crime survival and serious violent encounters.
Third. He states that two well placed shots would win the fight. And in this that is true, the problem is the well placed. Landing those two well-placed blows is far more difficult that Cartoon realizes (and he doesn’t even spar, so he isn’t even aware of the difficulties in landing them in the very tame world of sparring).
Now, I object in my reply especially to the two blows portion. As an instructor for many years, I have received literally thousands of blows from many people. In the early days of my dojo when I was still teaching kids many of those stikes were from small children. Pure and simple, they lack the power to cause serious damage barring a lucky strike (which for the dozenth time is FAR more difficult than ye high and mighty sensei will likely tell you, but anybody who is serious about crime survival can quickly find out by trying out a few scenarios).
Cartoon flies off the handle implying heavily that I am a bad and violent instructor (and person for that matter) who doesn’t teach people discipline and self respect, which is of course a HUGE twisting of words and misapplying what was said to the wrong topic. (it was a nice try though)
He also states:
Which is true with the conditional again that well-placed is the rub. Also, it should be noted that we are supposed to take the word of somebody who doesn’t spar and is only preparing to take his 1st dan test? What makes what you state so overwhelmingly accurate vs. say a person with 22 years experience, 17 yrs (14 as a dojo owner) of which as an instructor, who has specialized his knowledge into crime survival?
Cartoon returns with:
Which was in his very first post on the thread…
He also states:
Well, hell, if you want to drag personal experience into it, how long exactly have you been teaching the martial arts? How many seminars have you attended? How many seminars have you taught? How many people have you instructed? How much time have you invested into the study of criminology, violent crime, violent criminals and crime survival?
Ultimately, what we have is somebody who doesn’t take martial arts to learn how to fight. Doesn’t want his kids learning how to fight. And yet, knows what a kid could do in a fight and how it would turn out.
Sorry, Cartooniverse, but you seem to have bought into the myths of the martial arts. It isn’t uncommon. I can only recommend reading “The Truth About Self Protection” by Massad Ayoob, and learning about the nature of violent encounters. Armed with that knowledge, an open mind, and objective thinking you’ll see what I mean.
I haven’t been teaching martial arts for 1/2 my life (nod goes to Glitch experience here), but I’ve been training for nearly 10 years. I’ve also both seen and participated in enough real fights (real meaning: no rules, no ref, no flag and a point for first contact, sometimes great bodily harm being done, both or one or neither fighter having training) to say with some authority that the vast majority of all real fights end up on the ground, and I have NEVER seen a real fight where one person came out untouched. Against a child that age, a single hit would likely end the contest, and if it did end up on the ground, again…game over. Insert coins for more plays.
Granted, you probably will not be trying to cause serious damage to a 10 year old kid, but since we’re in “all things being equal” mode, let’s pretend you consider yourself to be in potential danger.
I’d have to agree with Glitch here and say that under the age of 14, the kid simply has no prayer. At 14 or 15, he might have a chance greater than a snowman in july, but still not likely to win (barring genetic freaks like this 15 year old kid I saw the other day who weighs 275 lbs). The physical and (especially) emotional differences between a teenage child and a grown man are just too great.
At the risk of offending some of you traditional martial-arts purists, The color/rank of a belt NEVER matters. The only things that matter are experience, instinct, and determination, with determination being the most important factor, followed by experience. The person who is most determined to win the fight will almost always win.
And as to sparring…I’ll give you a paraphrase of a quote (I can’t remember the exact words) from Bruce Lee (maybe you’ve heard of him?):
Just like you can’t learn to swim without getting wet, you can’t learn to fight without fighting.
True true true. I even saw proof of it. The muay thai club where I used to train got invited to spar with a tae kwon do class on the same block. In our club, everything we did was realistic: sparring, kicking the bag, sparring, shadow boxing, sparring, etc. I think they practiced kata (or whatever the korean word for it is) most of the time and sparred once every 2 weeks or something because their teacher didn’t believe in it as a valid training tool. It was just a way to amuse the students.
They lost overwhelmingly.
You can’t learn to ride a bike by watching other people do it or even by riding a stationary bike. you need to DO IT. Same with swimming, and same with fighting.
I was planning on staying out of this discussion for the duration, given that there are several experts… and I am not… but Joe_Cool brought my name up and seemed to be challenging something I said earlier.
He said:
I think you and Glitch may be overgeneralizing. I think it is entirely possible for a well trained and possibly stronger than average child below the age of 14 to overcome a fully grown and possibly out of shape man with little fighting experience. I believe this with some conviction since as I’ve stated earlier, I actually witnessed a small 12 year old convincingly beat a large 18 year old.
For the sake of completeness I will outline the strategy as I perceived it. The youngster started out by goading the big guy into attack. The attacks were slow and the kid was fast so he managed to land a few key blows. One of which was in the general area of the groin, though this did not seem to seriously deter the big guy. The most effective blows seemed to be to the sides of the knees. After several of these, the big guy was stumbling. A short time later, the kid did some sort of scoop from the side that swept the big guy’s feet out from under him. Then the kid began kicking at the face and arms of the bully. The bully tried in vain to catch the kids feet, but then resigned himself to trying to protect his face. There were only a couple of times in the whole fight where the big guy was in a position where he could get at the kids upper body or torso - it was almost entirely feet (contrary to the point made by Glitch earlier). It did not appear, through any of this episode, that the bully was holding back - only that he was an incompetent fighter who had seriously underestimated his opponent.
I will contend that given a thousand 10 year old blackbelts pitted against a thousand pot-bellied 30 year olds, most of the time to old farts will win, but I bet there might be a few surprises in there…