Mean People (and what to do about them).

Great Debates
1

Meanness, what is it? Why does it enjoy so much *seeming * success and are there any benefits to being that way?

Too often, I have borne witness to people’s meanness to others or myself. This is not to say that I am incapable of being mean as well, it is just not my preferred choice of action. Long ago, I learned to look for the win-win solution. Only later did I finally come to the conclusion that people who play games (in the negative sense; i.e., mind games, word games and other ambiguous or equivocal forms of conduct) usually go for the win-lose result as well. I have also found that such people are usually losers in that their negative outlook casts a pall over their entire personality.

Then why is meanness so popular in this modern world? Are there direct survival benefits to this conduct (aside from the harsh realities of a wartime or gang environment)? It is valued socially? I am able to discern the difference between efficiency and effectiveness, and understand the more effective aspect that meanness has in terms of immediate results. I am unable to see where there is any pleasant occupation derived from it.

It has also been my observation that highly intelligent people are rarely mean in nature. Meanness seems to breed out of ignorance much more readily. This would indicate that such a strategy is usually abandoned when more suitable alternatives evolve. I realize that certain segments of society still reward meanness heavily (see the above reference to gang situations), but they tend to be fringe elements and the contract of social cohesion typically imbues meanness with a nasty connotation it richly deserves.

So, let us debate the role of meanness in our current world. I find it to be counterproductive and suggestive of inferior intelligence. I further note that meanness frequently fosters (or is fostered by) a pessimistic character. Seeking out the worst in others and playing upon those flaws is rude at best and more often just plain childish. So, the question remains, is meanness a viable method of conduct? Should it be rewarded or censured?

2

Interesting topic, I was just thinking about this the other day. You make a good point in saying ignorance/lack of intelligence breeds meanness. All things being equal, I think it might be a general lack of objectiveness, that might allow such a negative behavior. They simply do not have the capacity to detach themselves from the situation, and realize what an ass they’re being. It also stems from the human condition of selfishness. We have an overwhelming urge to seek what we want, no matter who or what might be in our way, so if we cannot look at our behavior objectively, we don’t realize what everyone else does. In fact, it’s usually the opposite outlook: The Asshole in question will probably end up thinking everyone is against him/her where every reaction to their meanness will look like a threat, which it only spirals down from there.

Mix pride in the equation, and you’ll end up with a very stubborn, subjective jack-ass.

The best thing you can do to short-fuse an a-hole, is to reverse the polarity of the situation. Empathize with the person, and don’t stoop to their level. Take an objective look to realize what it REALLY is that they’re upset about.

Either that or flip 'em off! :slight_smile:

3

I hate to hijack this so soon, but I have ample experience of very bright people being quite mean. Message Boards and Newsgroups are prime examples of this behavior and this MB is not an exception. (Certainly many intelligent people are not mean–even here, but I find no correaltion between being mean and intelligence (in either direction).

4

It seems to me that one of the driving motivations for meanness is the impression that one is, or has the desire to be, superior. In such cases, there exists a minor form of the dehumaniziation that, in extreme cases, can lead to much uglier things. “I am better than you, therefore, I need not afford you the same respect that I might afford those who I deem to be my equals.” - that sort of thing. This appears to be one of the more common motivations, and results in behaviors such as condesencion, making fun of others, acting in a “snooty” matter, etc., all of which can easily lead to hurt feelings.

Another major factor, again from my experience, is a desire for revenge, of sorts. If one has grown up being on the receiving end of meanness, one may acquire an “over-developed sense of vengeance” and lash out at others, just to make them “see how it feels”, even though those on the receiving end, in this case, probably had nothing to do with the former’s hurt feelings.

5

Quote taken from The Simpsons:

Marge: Why is he butting and goring the other elephants like that?
Zookeeper: Elephants are kind of like people. Some are mean because they were mistreated or abused. And then there are some who are just jerks.

6

And also:

7

Other than the personal attacks that are so prevalent on this message board, I have rarely encountered meanness among adults except when I hear of atrocities such as the mob behavior of nazis, Pol Pot regime, recent events in the Balkans and central Africa. However, I find teenagers can be the meanest bunch of assholes smart or stupid and suggest that the character of meanness is merely evidence of lack of maturity. Many teenagers outgrow it, but some people never mature and hence pursue more antisocial activities such as homosexual bashing, overt racism, rape, theft and murder.

8

Given that this MB is made up of mostly very bright people, and that a fair number of those are frequently pretty damn mean, I’d have to say your theory as far as that goes just doesn’t hold up.

I don’t see that meanness is successful, Zenster. Of course, we all have different ideas of what defines success. IMHO, people who resort to meanness not only lose, they have conceded the game.

I think it is borne mostly from insecurity. It is my own observation that the most personally secure and grounded people are almost never mean. They don’t need to be. They know that being mean says nothing at all about the victim of the meanness, and absolutely everything about the meanie.

stoid

9

I agree with the comment above about lack of objectivity. In my experience, a lot of people who act mean have absolutely no idea how lame they are being.

Also, I think that at bottom, many mean people are over-sensitive. In other words, they perceive slights more readily and take offense more easily than the rest of us.

Then they lash out in what they feel to be justifiable retaliation.

10

Just wanted to mention that I simulposted with another poster who mentioned “insecurity,” and that I agree with that too.

Actually, being oversensitive and being insecure are pretty similar things.

Another ingredient in meanness is power. For example, mean people in offices are frequently mean to their subordinates, and less frequently mean to their direct supervisors.

This makes it hard to assess the relationship between meanness and intelligence, since intelligent people are more likely to rise to positions where they can be mean to people. Also, intelligent people are more capable of being mean in less-obvious ways.

Slight hijack, but I’d like to make a more general point about the human condition.

A year or so ago, I watched a movie about cave-men (and cave-women). It might have been “Clan of the Cave Bear.”
Anyway, many of the characters in this movie had suffered serious injuries, and still bore the marks of those injuries - they limped, had scars, etc.

Today (in the West, anyway) is much better as far as such physical injuries go, but I believe that if you could see people’s psyches, you would see this sort of damage.

I hope that in the same way that physical impediments are less common now than in the past, so too in the future will mental problems be less common.

11

Mean people suck.

12

Intelligence is a red herring. Everyone has their own definition of it and what it means depends on whoever is determining it, which is everyone.

I think that mean people are so because once you start being mean society trys to reinforce that into you. Most people treat others about the same that they are treated. So the mean people just get more mean. Why would they become less mean when everyone else starts treating them worse?

13

Everybody’s mean. People are rarely mean all the time. Anybody who’s competitive, can be mean (otherwise you’d just let the other guy win.)

Mean is useful in most competitive situations.

Like that episode of Start Trek where Kirk got split into two parts, nice and mean. The nice Kirk was innefectual, indecisive, not much good for anything, while the mean Kirk, could certainly get things done, but lacked charity and discretion and was purely selfish.

For example, my daughter loves raisins and will eat them until she gets sick. She thinks I’m a criminal when I take them away. If you could hear her yell, you’d think I was abusing her.

Fortunately, I don’t mind being mean and am capable of hardening my heart to such an extent, that I can take the raisins away, and ignore her tantrum (though it rips the nice me apart inside to do so.)

Similarly, I was mean enough to let her go to sleep on her own, though she hated it. Now she does it without a problem.

So, the ability to be mean is certainly a helpful one (ask any physical therapist,) and can certainly be used to constructive ends.

The trick is to use it appropriately. Sadly this doesn’t always happen, and good people spill over their meanness where it’s not necessary.

14

Scylla, I think you have an overly broad definition of mean. What you are referring to in your post sounds more like tough, strong, hard-nosed. The fact that your toddler finds you mean doesn’t make you so. You are doing what is right, it’s just hard for her to take. I hardly think Zenster had that sort of thing in mind when he wrote the OP.

stoid

15

This is a rare instance of you being off-base Scylla. Your behavior can only be interpreted as mean by being reviewed in a short-sighted sense (as your young daughter might apply it).

In the interests of debate, I supose that the word “maturity” could be substituted for “intelligence” above. Intelligence was not connected to this discussion as a red herring. I happen to feel that true intelligence demands a sufficient degree of autoscopic or introspective thought processing as to make it obvious how fruitless meanness is.

It is precisely the fact that such a non-viable modus operendi can be viewed as productive which seems to contradict a claim of intelligence. Insecurity and immaturity can certainly play a role, but in the long run it is our thinking minds that set our course and entrench our habits.

The habit of meanness defies logic and rational conduct. Malicious behavior is the hallmark of sub-par mentation and signals a degree of short-sightedness. I have not witnessed as many incidents of meanness at these boards that others cite above. I can only assume that I have managed to stay (somewhat) clear of such verbal mudslinging.

All said and done, I would be interested to see it shown that there are direct and valid benefits to mean behavior. It is too easy to cite cases of individual self-absorbed conduct, but “no man is an island” and unilateral models of operation are not applicable to the social contract that we must all act within.

16

I don’t think the thinking mind is nearly as powerful as it likes to narrate itself as. An influence on the life’s course, to be sure, but its grip on the helm is more than a little slippery.

“Meanness” aside, how many people have thrown away careers, responsibilities, previous loves, friendships, whatnot, on the sake of an emotional whim–with life-changing results (both good and bad)? Otherwise intelligent people repeat themes and variations on patterns of behavior over and over; the archetypical example being those who just always seem to end up in the same kind of bad relationship.

“Maturity” seems to me to be even more of a vague term than the problematic “intelligence”. It seems to veer right on the circular; “mature people aren’t mean” is just a hop and skip from “people who aren’t mean aren’t mean.” That’s certainly true, but I don’t know how helpful it is.

So, back to mean people being less intelligent people. I’d like to believe that’s true, but I don’t. I’ve known a few simply brilliant people, who were also jerks.

I don’t think it’s a matter of short-sightedness so much as narrow sight–a lack of compassion hand-in-hand with a self-centeredness. Maliciousness stems from not understanding, or viewing, or agreeing that it’s of higher quality to act with compassion factored in.

I haven’t either. I suspect a lot of “meanness” that people see is the same kind of “meanness” that Scylla was getting at. Meanness is a dynamic between individuals (no one is “mean” if they live in total isolation on a deserted island somewhere); sometimes it lies in malicious action from one–and sometimes, in the misunderstanding, or narrow perspective, of the “victim”.

As for benefits, I suppose when someone treats others like crap, they’re soon surrounded closely only by those who will accept that. That’s pretty direct. Whether it’s valid or not, that’s more slippery.

17

I think Scylla’s example points out something important: meanness can be perceived differently by different people.

Stoid, just because all us adults know Scylla isn’t being mean doesn’t mean that his daughter won’t think so. If she were old enough, she might even say “You’re mean, daddy!” and wonder what to do about him.

Zenster, you haven’t defined “meanness” yet - you’ve left it assumed. That’s why Scylla gave an example that you and Stoid disagreed with - his assumption was different from yours. It would help at least my understanding if you would define it and provide examples.

I think “meanness” can be logical, at least to the “mean” person. I’d bet that they all feel perfectly justified. Their premises may be different from yours.

May I respectfully suggest that the first thing we should do about mean people is try to understand why they’re mean? Granted, there are some who are just jerks.

18

I have known a lot of intelligent people who were jerks, in the sense of being rude. I think it’s because they are impatient with those who don’t understand as quickly or as well. Of course, if they are really all that much more intelligent than the masses, they will understand their position in the scheme of things, and be a bit more patient.

But is rudeness the same as meanness? I’m assuming we’re not talking here about meanness in the sense of stinginess, which (I think) is more common in Britain.

Meanness in the sense of cruelty is a very different thing. I’m not sure that relates to intelligence at all. Come to think of it, I haven’t got a clue as to what motivates that.

19

Hey, I don’t mean to say that stinginess is more common in Britain than anywhere else. I mean to say that I think in Britain, the common meaning of the word “mean” is closer to “stingy” than it is in America. See what I mean?

20

All right, let me give another example:

We have a relative who likes to come to our property and fish.

The person brings several people, drinks (she’s an alcoholic) and leaves a mess. Each time there’s usually a mess behind, and we were getting kind of tired of having to deal with her crap.

Each time there was a problem, we talked to her nicely, about what we didn’t like and she apologized and promised it wouldn’t happen again.

One night my wife and I went out leaving a babysitter behind. She showed up, coming down the driveway so fast she left skidmarks that I could see the next day. We have a small child and will not tolerate that.

The babysitter tried to see what was going on and this woman drove up, almost fell out of the car, and started yelling at the babysitter “Who are you? This isn’t your house. We have a right to be here!” Then went back down with her friends to fish and drink.

The babysitter called me. We went straight home. By the time we got there, she was gone.

The next day I called her and told her that we weren’t allowing any fishing for a while. It was getting “fished out” I lied.

A week later her and her friends showed up again.

When I went down to kick them off I was as deliberately mean and nasty as I could possibly be. I cursed her out, called her an alcoholic, told her to get the fuck off the property and don’t come back. When she got all apologetic, I told her to shut the fuck up and go, that I don’t want to expose my daughter to this shit, and she can take her beer cans, and white trash ass out of here (I really said this.)

She called everybody in my wife’s family and told them what a nasty sonovabitch I was, gave me dirty looks at the next family reunion, but you know what? She hasn’t come back. A message has been sent not to fuck with me.

Come to tink of it, I’m really mean anytime I chase a trespasser off the property. If you’re nice, or reasonable they come back.

Being mean is a great way to get people to stop screwing with you.