Medieval Total War: The Spanish

Cafe Society
1

I was thinking about playing a new game of M: TW and thought about playing the Spanish. I’ve previously done the Spanish once, as well as the Polish and the English. I won with the English and the Spanish. Well, I basically got to the point where I could more or less crush everyone bit by bit but didn’t care to spend the next 10,000 hours slowly conquering. With the Poles, they, uh, stopped having childrne. My stupid royal family spent most of their time NOT having children. In fact, they seemed to be paying an awful lot of attention to little boys instead of having little boys. Eventually, I ran out of heirs, although not before I got vaguely sick over the whole thing. Before that I had conquered half of Germany and most of Russia.

So I was thinking of the Spanish again. I liked their position, but guarding the sea lanes was hard and there were so many enemies. England, France, nations halfway across the map, various african powers - everyone wanted a chunk of me. But I had good generals. My armies stank, as the javelin-throwing light horsemen did nothing at all. Should I give them another shot? Is there some other unit they get?

Is there another power which is more interesting? France, maybe? But if I play them, is there anything I can actually do, being surrounded by Catholics?

2

Do you mean MTW or M2:TW? And what do you mean by “interesting?” Unfortunately for you, in both version I find the Poles to be the most interesting, strategy-wise, because they have room to move yet will eventually abut others, yet are not totally surrounded from the beginning like the HRE, and also are not powerful enough that wars are a cakewalk like the Byzantines or the Turks.

I can’t say I’ve played much M2:TW with the Spanish so I can’t comment on that, but in M:TW their javelinmen ROCKED, not because of their javelin throwing powers but because they’re non-expensive mass producable cavalry! Just charge headlong into non-spearmen infantry and run them down! They’ll die, we’ll make more! But since M2:TW swung the balance somewhat in favor of infantry that tactic might not work anymore.

I don’t think I’ve played either version with the French. But they seem to have a really good mix of troops. I’m not afraid of being excommunicated really unless you’re playing for the roleplaying aspects, since the computer is stupid enough that AFAICT as long as you have 1 full stack guarding each front your enemies will be conservative enough that you can pick apart their slowly advancing half-stacks one by one while your field army concentrates against one enemy. (That’s regarding M2:TW on Hard/Hard level. M:TW strategy is completely different: divide your stacks up nearly equally, and always attack the enemy on each territory you can: you will lose some, but they will retreat in most territories and you will be removing their income!)

Hmmm, maybe I will drop my M2:TW Byzantines game I am doing right now, trying to use as many Trebizond Archers as possible (I LOVE it when my historically-inaccurate masses of fiery arrows cause mass panic from the enemy before they even get to me and then I cut them down with the archer’s fighting ability, but the enemy attacks me in the open so infrequently that I have to put in several hours of playing time to get that one moment of satisfaction.) I might start up the French to see what they play like: I was intimidated by how surrounded they were (by Catholics no less,) but I think I am good enough to take them on now.

Hmmm, have you played any M2:TW games as the Genoans or the Venetians? They are surrounded enough to be interesting, yet are small enough to not make a big target. As I see how much infantry is more useful in this version considering how many cityfights there are, armies of massive Italian Spear Mililita seem mighty tempting to me, even with their lack of heavy cavalry.

3

M:TW (1) with the Spanish is usually pretty easy given the iron resources and Jinettes. I don’t think I’ve ever played a game where Aragon prospered so, provided you can keep the spirit of the Reconquista alive and the Moors off Iberian soil, it’s pretty much a cakewalk. Your European access and African access are both bottlenecks easy to fortify and, in Europe anyway, it’s almost guaranteed that the other side will be fractured by other nations rather than a unified force keeping you off the main continent. Finally, your position at the edge of Europe means that it’s rare that both your northern and eastern shipping lanes will be cut off at the same time.

Definately give Jinettes another chance. Played correctly, they’re fast and deadly. They can easily outrun heavy cavalry and their javelins are devastating against armored units. They’re also one of the few light cav units which can hold its own in melee (albeit, against lighter infantry – don’t send them into spears or anything). They’re your secret weapon against Byzantine kataphraktoi.

4

Senor, you have Crusades! Use your Catholic neighborhood to push all of your army into a boat and take over a rebel state. Use that army and the navy to tke out all the rebel states.
Spain is rather easy to play from. You’re not going to get attacked by France any time soon, just fortify the line against the Moops and kick rebel ass for a while. Bribe El Cid, though if you have the cash. He’s a good general. He’s available right in the beginning.

5

hat special untis do the French get? Will I have them before I conquer the world?

6

I don’t think the French get any unique units. They (and the English) can train hobilars and they (and English) can gain Knights Templar through Crusades. and they eventually share Gendarmes with Spain and Italy. But they don’t get anything unique to France. Mainly just your usual collection of western Catholic units.

7

I hate hobilars. I never build them.

8

I’ve never heard of this game but – what year are we talking about? – concentrate on the Med. It’s been proven time and again that a two-front war is a trip to Hell, so send the French there instead of going yourself. Whoever is playing the English will help. And find a way to ally with the Moors if you have to because you don’t want them on your back. You can always cut their throats later. Which is what they think of you.

9

[QUOTE=dropzone]
It’s been proven time and again that a two-front war is a trip to Hell
[/QUOTE]

The number of fronts you’re fighting on in a Total War game is directly proportional to how much fun the game is. As Spain there’s absolutely no reason not to push the Moors back through North Africa while simultaneously crushing France (assuming the Pope lets you).

10

Even better than waiting for the Pope’s blessing, suck up all the property around France and just wait. Eventually, they’ll stab you in the back, then you get to annihilate them with the Pope’s blessing because they’re filthy cocksuckers!
That’s how it’s done here, people! Do we need to start another game to pass around?

11

Assumptions: This is MTW not MTW:2. You have installed the v1.1 patch or Viking Invasion. Your campaign begins in Early.

As the Spaniard, Crusade your little socks off from the word go. You have a Muslim opponent right on your doorstep and that’s all the excuse you need. Crusades will generate Knights of Santiago and Order Foot Soldiers, the equivalent of the High era heavies (their only disadvantage is you can’t rebuild their losses). Give them plenty of company in the shape of Spanish Jinettes and have at it. With careful management you can burn only the expendables and by the time you’ve got the Reconquista taken care of you will have a good nucleus of heavy cavalry and infantry. You should now be able to unify the peninsula and you have some convenient choke points to keep enemies out. You have nice short sea-trade routes in both directions, you have iron, you have princes who are good generals. The world is your oyster.

Jinettes are not to be sneezed at - those javelins are difficult to manage but they can do serious damage to armoured enemies. You must take Jinettes off “skirmish” though or they will never close to within javelin range. And as fast light cavalry for riding down archers or taking hordes of prisoners from routing enemies, or even charging into the rear of enemy infantry who are already in a hard fight, they’re hard to beat.

As the French, your chief drawback is being intermingled with the English like that; also the Aragonese have an annoying habit of looking for holiday homes in the South of France. Whatever LOUNE thinks of hobilars, what you have there is light cavalry with absurdly easy building requirements: it doesn’t get easier than Horse Farmer and, of course, you need no castle buildings to get all the way to Master Horse Breeder for the +1 Valour. Against early-game armies that place too much reliance on peasants and archers, Hobilars are damn nearly game-busters; they’re not for riding down unbroken infantry and shouldn’t be used for such, but if you use them as light cavalry should be used, they’ll repay you.

The best way to game the Pope, no matter who you’re playing as, is to pick more than one fight at once; the Pope can only warn you off one enemy at a time, giving you two years to comply and then ten years of hands-off. During that time, you can beat up whomever else you want to (except the Pope himself, of course). It’s so easy that some players think it’s a really cheesy strategy.

If people want to pass a game around, by all means deal me in but note the assumptions above: I can play either v1.1 or VI but that’s all.

12

I’d forget the Spanish. Almohads all the way!

13

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Assumptions: This is MTW not MTW:2. You have installed the v1.1 patch or Viking Invasion. Your campaign begins in Early.

As the Spaniard, Crusade your little socks off from the word go. You have a Muslim opponent right on your doorstep and that’s all the excuse you need. Crusades will generate Knights of Santiago and Order Foot Soldiers, the equivalent of the High era heavies (their only disadvantage is you can’t rebuild their losses). Give them plenty of company in the shape of Spanish Jinettes and have at it. With careful management you can burn only the expendables and by the time you’ve got the Reconquista taken care of you will have a good nucleus of heavy cavalry and infantry. You should now be able to unify the peninsula and you have some convenient choke points to keep enemies out. You have nice short sea-trade routes in both directions, you have iron, you have princes who are good generals. The world is your oyster.

Jinettes are not to be sneezed at - those javelins are difficult to manage but they can do serious damage to armoured enemies. You must take Jinettes off “skirmish” though or they will never close to within javelin range. And as fast light cavalry for riding down archers or taking hordes of prisoners from routing enemies, or even charging into the rear of enemy infantry who are already in a hard fight, they’re hard to beat.

As the French, your chief drawback is being intermingled with the English like that; also the Aragonese have an annoying habit of looking for holiday homes in the South of France. Whatever LOUNE thinks of hobilars, what you have there is light cavalry with absurdly easy building requirements: it doesn’t get easier than Horse Farmer and, of course, you need no castle buildings to get all the way to Master Horse Breeder for the +1 Valour. Against early-game armies that place too much reliance on peasants and archers, Hobilars are damn nearly game-busters; they’re not for riding down unbroken infantry and shouldn’t be used for such, but if you use them as light cavalry should be used, they’ll repay you.

The best way to game the Pope, no matter who you’re playing as, is to pick more than one fight at once; the Pope can only warn you off one enemy at a time, giving you two years to comply and then ten years of hands-off. During that time, you can beat up whomever else you want to (except the Pope himself, of course). It’s so easy that some players think it’s a really cheesy strategy.

If people want to pass a game around, by all means deal me in but note the assumptions above: I can play either v1.1 or VI but that’s all.
[/QUOTE]

I’d rather have one Jinete and three archers than have two hobilars.

14

[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
I’d rather have one Jinete and three archers than have two hobilars.
[/QUOTE]

That was a long quote for a single-sentence reply. I’d also rather have four units than two, unless one side was grossly outclassed, but if I had two hobilars against one Jinette and three archers I’d not consider it hopeless - archers have dreadful morale and useless hand to hand stats, and with only a single Jinette to keep the hobilars away I’d figure I had a chance. I’ve certainly held off a peasants/archers army with just a couple of hobilars before.

15

Jinetes are solid. Not game-unbalancing amazing, but solid. I’m playing M2:TW right now as the Portuguese, who also get them, and Jinetes are excellent cheap cavalry for harrassing flanks. Those javelins are the best early-period counter to heavily armored troops like dismounted knights, and they’re fast enough to do a fighting retreat against mounted knights while picking them off with javelins. Yes, they can’t hold up in melee, it’s true, but just remember that they’re not heavy cavalry and shouldn’t be used as such. And keeping even one unit of Jinetes in store pays off when you need to catch a fleeing enemy general. Just skirmish until you run out of javelins, then back off and prepare to charge the flanks right before the enemy routs.

16

Wait - the Jinettes wont close to javelin range with skirmish on? (Yes, this is M:TW, not 2) Well, no wonder I couldn’t get them to work! I kept sending them against slower infantry, but every time they got lose, they’d do nothing and run away. Eventually, the enemy spearmen would charge and catch them. Who came upwith the idea of having them skirmish at less than throwing range? :confused:

17

Yeah, their ‘throw’ range is shorter than their ‘flight’ range with Skirmish. Go figure and, yeah, it makes Skirmish pretty worthless with them. Your best use of them is to pin a heavy unit with with some of your infantry (spears for Cav., swords for things like Vangarian guards) and then have your Jinetes throw at the their rear. Once they actually get close enough to hit things, their javelins are deadly against armored targets.

Javelin units only get four throws before they’re out of ammo. Once they’re depleted, they still make presentable light cavalry against unarmored infantry, shock attacks from the rear to break morale or to chase routers.

Oh, and don’t send horses against spears if you can help it and especially not from the front. Spears get a defensive bonus against mounted troops. The “kill flowchart” goes like 'Swords kill spears kill horses kill swords" with missile troops obviously able to kill anything from range and be killed by nearly anything up close. Even units like urban militia are better to use against spears than your horses. This is excluding rear attacks where the spears won’t get their bonus.

18

[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Wait - the Jinettes wont close to javelin range with skirmish on? (Yes, this is M:TW, not 2) Well, no wonder I couldn’t get them to work! I kept sending them against slower infantry, but every time they got lose, they’d do nothing and run away. Eventually, the enemy spearmen would charge and catch them. Who came upwith the idea of having them skirmish at less than throwing range? :confused:
[/QUOTE]

Well, skirmish range is going to be dictated by how much of a start they think they need against whatever they’re up against. There are similar problems with foot javelins (Kerns in vanilla M:TW, several other types in VI) and with naptha throwers. Javelins are an ideal missile to toss into the backs of enemy units who are already busy though.

Ever frequent an M: TW messageboard? There are some good ones out there where they discuss topics like this.
The OP also asked about other factions to play as. I like the Danes. Vikings are absurdly good for their low building requirements - they have reasonable attack strength, a bonus versus armour, and enough morale to offset their poor defences. Well led (and the Dane usually has some 4* princes) they are too good for most early-game opposition, though they don’t like being overrun by cavalry. They can be shipped about the place on the Danes’ cheap Longships, and Denmark is right next to Sweden, a superb province with farmland, copper, iron and three kinds of trade good; what’s more, the indigenous Swedes often don’t even stand and fight.

19

In the original Medieval: Total War, I love the Danes. They get some nasty heavy infantry and get really interesting access to rebel cities.

20

I’ve only played a few factions, but here’s my thoughts:

The English were good but not excellent- lousy cavalry and no ranged cavalry at all. Excellent heavy infantry but no spears worth mentioning, and longbowmen are the best foot archers around, except maybe the Mongol Infantry, which aren’t available in campaign anyway.

The Moors were very, very good in the endgame, but weak until then. Their Christian knights (mounted and dismounted) are amazing- the dismounted ones are even stronger than Catholic knights. Granadine Jinetes are good, their mounted crossbowmen are average, and their camel-mounted gunners are amazing. Urban militia are quite good, too. Average foot archers, though.

Hungary is very good. Their cavalry archers will hold up right through the end of the game, their light and heavy cavalry are excellent, and I love pavise crossbow militia. A very mobile, fluid experience to play, which I think is a lot of fun.

Portugal now, and I’m… underwhelmed. Jinetes are good, Almughavars (javelinmen) are passable, and that’s all that I’m happy with. We’ll see; it’s still quite early.

Next up is either Russia, the Danes, or Poland. Probably Poland.