Well, with Demi Moore circa 1990… okay.
As a side note, it was that movie that cemented my atheism.
Because she was relating a subjective experience, the details of how it appeared to her. She was perfectly clear from the start that this is what she was describing (“I can’t objectively document my experience of talking to him, so I don’t expect other people to accept it as evidence or proof …”, from meenie’s first post on this subject, and “I worry a lot whether he’s real. If I’ve had a sustained intense hallucination like this for 8 years, something is very, very wrong with me and that’s scary.”, from her second.) Presuming that she is being honest and not making up a story to mess with our heads (a presumption that I would stick with until there is definitive evidence to the contrary), then it’s hard for me to see that she’s making any kind of claim that needs a defense. At the very most, she’s making a claim that she is aware has no evidentiary support and that she doesn’t expect anyone to believe. (Not, evidently, being familiar enough with lekatt, who happily believes anything, as long as there’s no reasonable evidence for it.)
She’s obviously aware of the possibility that this is a sign of some kind of mental or physical illness. And she’s not standing at a precipice claiming she can fly–there’s no reason to think that she or anyone around her is in immediate danger. So why get all worked up? (Other than at the invasion of woo into the pristine logical landscape of GD, I suppose. :rolleyes: )
There is a disorder called Delusional Disorder, in which the person has non-bizarre delusions without any of the other symptoms of schizophrenia, or any other psychotic or mood symptoms. Non-bizarre delusions are false beliefs about things that are possible (i.e., being followed). Bizarre delusions, on the other hand, are false beliefs about things that are NOT possible (i.e., having the people around you all replaced with robotic doubles).
meenie7 could possibly have Delusional Disorder, IF one states that a belief in ghosts is non-bizarre. I, however, am making no such statement.
This post is in no way an attempt to diagnose anyone, simply to offer the information that it is possible to be delusional without the other symptoms of schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders.
Thank you. I was really wondering about that.
I think SCSimons said it pretty well in #502 above.
Here’s the way I see this thread, grossly exaggerated:
OP: How are you feeling?
Meenie: Sort of cold. I don’t know why, it’s pretty warm out.
Others comment.
DtC: You shouldn’t humor Meenie. She isn’t cold. There’s no way she can be cold, it’s 150 degrees out! It’s sick that anyone would even pretend she could be cold, she’s a dirty filthy goddamn liar or a whackjob!
Meenie: Er… Ok, fine, whatever.
DtC: No, not whatever, get some help quick you poor ignorant psychopath!!
Begbert2: Really, who can say if she feels warm or cold… this is an epistemological conundrum of the first order.
Random poster: Meenie, what does the thermometer say, are you inside or outside.
DtC: Epistemology my ass! She can’t be cold and that’s a fact and if you don’t think so you’re ignorant!
Olive: Man it’s hot here. I wish I were cold.
Meenie: I can’t find a thermometer.
DtC: Olive, you should thrown in the hoosegow until you realize what a retard you are. And I’m not pitting Meenie, and I’m not being mean!
Meenie: Seriously, calm down. What’s the big deal? I don’t care if you believe I was cold or not. I’m not making a scientific claim.
Muttrox: Yeah!
DtC: Yes you are! And you are solely responsible for the death of Western civilization and the cancellation of Arrested Development!
Meenie: The thermometer said it’s 135 degrees out. It’s red. I like puppies.
Etc, etc…
That’s a giant crock of shit, of course. Making a factual claim that you can talk to a real ghost is not a subjective claim, it’s an objective one. As such, it must either be dishonest or deluded.
What would be a subjective claim?
“I feel cold” is a subjective claim. So is “I’m happy”, “I like the taste of garlic”, “My favorite color is yellow”, etc. Subjective claims are claims of perspective.
“I saw a ghost?”
Seem awfully subjective to me.
It’s subjective but also carries with it an objective claim…that is, that the ghost exists. From reviewing the prior threads, the poster is claiming that they are in regular contact with the spirit of someone who died at the beginning of the 19th century.
I, like DtC find such a claim suspect, and suggest that the poster is not drawing the correct conclusion from whatever events are actually happening to him or her.
“I hear voices” or “I feel something cold next to me” sounds subjective. Saying that their source is a man who died x number of years ago who periodically comes to visit you in between seeing the latest Pixar release would be objective though, no?
Meenie’s claim couldn’t be considered subjective because her account depends on an objective reality that ghosts exist. We know with a hugely acceptible degree of certainty that ghosts do not exist, so her account can only be explained by these things:
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She’s blatantly trolling/lying.
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She’s deceived herself somehow, and is merely relating her delusion.
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She’s mentally ill; neurologically, psychiatrically, or physiologically.
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This has been a fun, cute and “innocent” game of hers for a while now, has never been called on it from the people she knows, and has now made the mistake of bringing it here, and is too embarrassed about the assertion to back down from it now… so she’s just continuing the game rather than admit it was all a ruse in the first place.
I’m kind of a fan of number 4. Sorry meenie, no offense, it’s just we’re all human after all, and it doesn’t sound like you have mental problems. But there has to be some explanation other than “ghosts exist.”
I’m starting to think your detractors (myself included) are using the semi-disingenuous* concern for your health in order to scare/shock you into admitting it was all a game from the get-go.
- In that, they are genuinely concerned about your well being in general, but don’t really believe anything life-threatening is wrong with you.
I like ice cream depends on the existence of ice cream.
I think she’s full of shit myself, but I don’t see any reason for the pitting. She was describing (true or not) her own experiences.
“Hello, I’m Leonard Nimoy. The following tale of alien encounters is true. And by true, I mean false. It’s all lies, but they’re entertaining lies. And in the end, isn’t that the real truth? The answer is: No.”
But the pitting wasn’t of her. The pitting was of all the other people in the thread who were humoring her in her incorrect belief that she hangs out with a ghost.
This was an incredible post (snipped for brevity), and I wanted to make sure it did not just pass by without expressing my gratitude. As a recovering alcoholic/addict, I know what it is like to suffer from a disease that tells you that you do not have it. I regret all 20 years I spent listening to the voice of my addiction, even though it was fun, and a comfort, at first. I, too, was terrified of giving up what I knew and facing the world without my chemical ‘friends’. In just a couple short years, I have more true friends and better relationships than I could have imagined. Because I finally got help.
Meenie, please heed this loving advice choie and a few others have extended in a caring way. You seem like an intelligent, imaginative, warm person and you have handled the vitriol here with amazing grace. I hope you do get help sooner rather than later. I wish I had.
I’m still not sure I see your point. You can’t like ice cream unless it exists in the first place. You can’t talk to ghosts unless they exist in the first place. Her story depends on the assertion (and therefore claim) that ghosts exist.
Dio has stated several times he wasn’t pitting meenie directly, but those that were egregiously humoring her, for whatever reason.
She is not expressing a subjective opinion about something already known to exist. She is asserting to have seen something which cannot and does not exist. It isn’t like saying, “I like ice cream.” it’s like saying “I ride unicorns.”
She’s making a claim about objective reality, not subjective experience, and I didn’t pit meenie, I pitted those who were humoring her.
Captain Amazing gave an example of a subjective claim, “I like the taste of garlic.” cmyk, I assume you agree with that. As you pointed out, it depends on the existence of garlic. This is exactly analogous to a claim about your experiences with ghosts. It’s a subjective claim, dependent on the existence of ghosts. If you disagree, please point out how one is subjective and one is not.
Why does it matter? One of DtC arguments is that Meenie is making objective claims. I disagree. If it is a subjective claim, it is not true or false by it’s very nature. This is what I was trying to say when I said she wasn’t claiming anything. Her statements aren’t true or false. See the last paragraph of this.
It’s the egregious falsity of her claim that bothers DtC so much, that made him think she was being humored and that was wrong. But if it is a subjective claim, then it can’t be false.
It’s not a subjctive claim. She asserts this ghost to be real, not imaginary.