Oh, I understand quite clearly. Like I said in that thread, the whole reason for movies like that is to help other people feel empathy for a subject they have no direct experience with. You know this is true, which is why such a movie is very important to you. So to hear somebody say, “This type of movie shouldn’t be made,” can sound rather offensive. For what it’s worth, I don’t know for sure whether you would have responded equally harshly with a random poster you never met before. But it’s a logical possibility that your anger towards her due to previous discussions added to your vitrol. It’s nothing to be ashamed of, by the way. We are all slaves to our emotions from time to time.
Is THAT the topic? I thought we were talking about how Diogenes was acting like a jerk towards meenie, and how you’re defending his actions. Shit, no wonder I was confused.
Not particularly, no. I don’t have a problem with a mod closing this, either. This argument is going absolutely nowhere.
For a person who seeks to point out the dangers of inappropriately-applied psychiatry, you seem very quick to understand entirely someone’s motivations and thought processes. Surely the lesson of the sites you linked is that we should not assume our understanding of another’s mind is so correct?
I have. And I’ve responded by saying that Dio is acting like a jerk. I’m not the only one, either – Rilchiam, Terrifel, Kythereia, Sleeps With Butterflies, HazelNutCoffee, begbert2, j666, Autolycus, Labrador Deceiver, hell even Bryan Ekers have weighed in on that side, to one extent or another. And when the discussion is that so-and-so is acting like a jerk, examining that person’s motivations is NOT an ad hominem argument, it’s entirely on topic. Hiding behind syllogistic language only proves to the lurkers that you have no rational defense. Besides…if Diogenes is so determined in his quest to prevent possible brain tumors, why didn’t he warn Bob Novak?
Reading someone’s motivations isn’t all that difficult. Anyone can do it, you don’t have to be a shrink. Indeed, most psychiatrist that I’ve met have turned out to be pretty shitty judges of character. All those years of med school tend to give you a God Complex.
At least I’m not insisting that you all need Zyprexa.
Oh, you’ve said WAY more than that. And plenty of people have said that you’re in the wrong too, but you choose to ignore those and focus on the people who agree with you. Not surprising, but not compelling either.
Yet when I and others have done it to meenie, all you can do it argue, rail, call names, and spout craziness. The message I’m getting is that you are unable to argue rationally or apply your own standards to yourself and your argument.
I hate to ask how many psychiatrists you’ve know and why, but I think I can guess the answer. You are grinding a massive axe here and it’s interfering with your objectivity. Step away from the thread.
Straw man. All anyone has said is that she should see a doctor. I don’t even know if anyone said specifically it needed to be a shrink. YOU are the one doing ALL the diagnosing. You’re a hypocrite.
None of those things contradicted established laws of physics. And the sun at the center of the solar system was contradicting a religious stance. And the discovery of new things has no bearing on the probability or scientific validity of another thing. Do you really think that Marcus (or ghosts) are as likely to exist as these things?
Strawman. And I said it before - nothing is 100% impossible. Please provide your cite that shows it is 100% impossiblle that there isn’t and invisible dragon living in the center of the earth. By your logic we should give credence to that story as well.
Marcus, as described, should be able to demonstrate his existence quite simply. Yet here we are arguing about the laws of physics and asking for cites or weather it is right or wrong to tell someone with this powerful of a delusion that it may, indeed, be a delusion (of course you do, as there may be an underlying, physical cause).
Come on, you’re not serious with the bus comment, right? Sure, I could strap my kids into their car seats, but they might get struck by lightning tomorrow anyway.
If you want to live a long time, the best way is by being safe and dealing with issues as they come up, not by ignoring them because something unexpected might kill you soon anyway.
And BTW, that “nothing can be proven to be 100% impossible” stuff from KGS et al is fucking irrelevant.
Analogy:
No matter how many observations we make of gravity working as usual we may never have irrefutable proof that things won’t be falling upwards tomorrow.
That, however, has no relevance whatsoever when interacting with a person going around making claims that he has been able to levitate when no-one’s around for the last 8 years (you listening out there, begbert?)
If you don’t believe in fairies and pixie dust the only consideration is how much politeness the situation warrants.
Naturally, I don’t bother to examine the motivations of people who agree with me. What would be the point?
Like I said, it’s not that difficult to read people’s ulterior motives. See how easy that was? And I am not in any way suggesting that NOBODY should ever visit a shrink; I just say that it should be done with caution. Plus, I’d be the first to say that Meenie’s social issues could benefit from the services of a counselor or psychotherapist (which FYI is different from a psychiatrist, don’t conflate the two) but it should be done on her own timetable, not for the satisfaction of people who don’t even know her.
Diogenes and others have repeatedly insisted that she seek out a neurologist to examine the possibility of a brain tumor. Even though she exhibits NO symptoms of brain cancer, you people continue to say, “What’s the harm? It’s possible isn’t it?” For fuck’s sake, as far as we know, Meenie is the only one of us who HAS visited a neurologist in the past, so she’s probably at LESS risk than everyone else here. And yet, you people keep harping on the subject. I find it peculiar that you keep trotting out the “straw man” argument, when this whole Brain Tumor Bullshit is the ULTIMATE fucking Straw Man. It’s so full of straw, it should audition for the Wizard of Oz. :rolleyes:
Read my posts again, bucko. I’ve said from the very beginning that I don’t believe Marcus is a bonafide ghost. He may be a highly structured illusion, but he’s a harmless illusion. That’s my opinion, at least. We can argue all day about whether paranormal events are possible, but that’s irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Couldn’t hurt. If it were me, I would. Actually, what I’d do is go to my GP and ask him first, and let HIM refer me, since that’s his JOB. Just get it checked out. But according to you, she doesn’ t need to. So railing on and on about the brain tumor issue is yes, a straw man. Any help (GP, neurologist, shrink) is better than none, and any doctor whatsoever is better than you, because you are not qualified to say Marcus is harmless. I repeat: YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED. Neither am I, which is why my stance is, get it checked out by somone, anyone, who is. I don’t see where I, or Diogenes, and everyone else, are wrong to say that. And you haven’t been able to prove it either. What the fuck is your problem? I don’t understand.
I agree with SherwoodAnderson: what this thread has become about is manners. Pit nanny bullshit. Crueler, nastier threads than about other posters than anything said about meenie7 are currently on the first page of this forum but they will not go for 14 pages. Because they don’t have a KGS in them grinding his anti-psychiatry act, even though that’s not what the thread is about.
With the amount of publicity “My Pet Ghost” got from Bush, I am actually surprised there aren’t many more Dopers who have ‘Marcuses’ to talk to.
However it occurs to me that I can help: send US $1,000 to MyPetGhost.com and I’ll deliver one in a poof of logic. No need for shipping and charging obviously.
Specify ethereal gender, color, garments, accent, age and approximate size please. Offer valid only while supplies last.
But it’s precisely that attitude, a certainty that you’re correct, that is presumed to lead to the problems your cited sites are talking about. You’re saying psychiatrists often have God Complexes, are actually shitty judges of character but presumably think they’re good. If I asked them, don’t you think they might say the same to you?
Look at this thread. People here are, presumably, misreading your own motivations. You may consider them simply mistaken, or morons, or just bad judges of character (I don’t presume to say which it is). But they think they’re pretty good at it. So what method do you use to judge your own skills at motivation reading? They think they’re good at it too; how do you know you’re not mistaken? And if one of the points of your disagreement here is that psychiatrists are wrong in tending to assume they’re skilled judges with inflated opinions of themselves, isn’t that all the more reason to evaluate not only others but yourself for that problem?
It’s unclear how serious an issue this is, unclear how seriously we should take it, and definitely unclear that meenie’s chances at longevity are being affected.
You’re right, neither one of us is qualified to determine whether or not she has a problem. Let me repeat: WE ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT SHE HAS A PROBLEM. So why are you insisting that she see someone, when there’s no compelling evidence that a problem exists? (And please don’t give me that “What’s the harm?” bullshit – I’ve already answered that question.)
Look, it doesn’t matter if Meenie talks to spirits, or thinks her dog is the resurrection of Mahatma Gandhi, or whatever. The ONLY thing that matters is how this imaginary friend affects her everyday life. If she had described “Marcus” as someone who’s being mean to her, or someone who intrudes on her thoughts when she doesn’t want him around, that would be different. But as far as I can tell, based on how she describes him, “Marcus” sounds very meek. Meenie herself comes across as a reasonably stable individual (with some emotional issues, I’ll grant) and most importantly, regarding “Marcus”, she appears to be in total control of her so-called delusion. That’s the key word: CONTROL.
The tricky part about “Marcus” is that he’s a highly structured illusion with a visual and tactile element, and can apparently even interact with the physical world on a limited basis (as evidenced by the dice game, though I’ll admit that part did seem kinda hinky) and as such needs to be respected as a valid part of Meenie’s psyche. Psychiatry, by its very nature, does NOT respect such illusions, so a shrink is more apt to medicate him away, or insist that Meenie not talk to him anymore. Which won’t fix the root problem of why Meenie needed to invent Marcus in the first place – nowadays, the trend is to “Medicate First, Ask Questions Later.” You also have to take into consideration that Marcus is the type of illusion that frightens people, thanks to our daily dose of CNN Special Reports and Stephen King novels. So if she does seek a professional, I would advise her to keep “Marcus” very close to the vest, until she locates a therapist she can trust to not freak out.
But there IS compelling evidence that a problem exists, moron. If what she’s describing is accurate, she’s having profound delusions and hallucinations. Hallucinating isn’t a functtion of a normal, healthy brain. Also, it does no harm, and it’s irresponsible for you to pronunce her healthy when you don’t know any such thing.