I see…
Some men are molesters so, therefore all men must be treated as molesters until they demonstrate, somehow, that they are not.
Makes sense to me.
Please complete the following sentences using that logic.
Some Arabs are terrorists, so…
Some blacks are violent…
Some Jews are dishonest…
Some blondes are stupid…
BTW, what color were those lawn guys?
Well, now see, I’ve been on that side of the badge for 17 years, and I believe in the 6th sense of a parent regarding their children being in danger. A connection exists on a higher level, I think, that allows you to pay attention so closely that you notice more than you normally might. Of course, that could be masked jelousy or even (urp) a misplaced subconscious crush, in either case, I think it happens. I don’t always think it’s accurate and I think it’s a product of an overactive imagination in most cases, but still.
I am an Eagle Scout. At the time, one of the youngest in the country (just 15). I wanted to, after high school, get back into scouting as a leader. I didn’t. I thought in my 20’s, that I’d like to do that same thing because I had more knowledge, more to offer kids. I didn’t. I think about it now, and in today’s climate, I dismiss the idea with prejudice. I know how parents think, and frankly, what I could teach their scout might well one day save their lives, but because of the paranoia about these “monsters lurking around every corner” I won’t even consider it.
Now, all that said, for kids in public places, I don’t give a tinkers damn about what parents give me the stinkeye. I don’t glare or leer at kids, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to curtail my outdoor activities because of someone elses’ paranoia. Like another poster here, I’m big, less than threatening to kids and smile a lot, so they take to me quite often, but if I’m ever in that situation, I always smile, wave, say something meaningless or simply nod. Once or twice I’ve gotten the hairy eyeball and I’ve given it right back. Screw 'em. If mommy or daddy wants a stare-off, I oblige. After about 5 seconds they get the hint that not only do I mean no harm to their child, but if we’re gonna get personal up in here, I’ve got their number.
I can powder an ass, change a diaper, heat up a bottle, bathe, dry and dress an infant, and if I needed to, I’d do it without a second thought. I used to be sensitive to what society thought about me and men in general. Today, I give less than a damn. I know where my head’s at, if yours is in the gutter, that’s your problem.
If I were you, I would have walked that child right past mommy over to the fed and asked him to call the locals to investigate the crime of child endangerment that you just witnessed and the death of the child that you just prevented, and be ready to sign complaints. That woman needed to be investigated, if for no other reason than to be taught a lesson in child rearing. This is just the kind of scenario that leads to the group-think that leads to what the OP is talking about. You saved a child, comic-book style from a speeding train, and you were meant to feel like a pervy shit. That’s crap of the highest order.
Not to me - seems like a strawman argument.
I’m not Scylla, but I’ll take a crack at it.
Some Arabs are terrorists, so…are others. Therefore it makes sense to guard against terrorism.
Some blacks are violent…as are some whites (although proportionately fewer). Therefore it makes sense to guard against crime.
Some Jews are dishonest…as are some Gentiles. Therefore, count your change.
Some blondes are stupid…therefore it makes it easier to get a date for Saturday night.
Some people are race-baiters, so…
Regards,
Shodan
Yeah, I bet you’d get a big kick out of that, wouldn’t you?
You have a funny way of jumping between literal and figurative interpretations. Don’t assume I mean you any ill will.
Do study the odds.
I agree. Scylla, you are more likely to be a molester of your child, statistically speaking, than any stranger is. Would you mind terribly of people glared at you and called the theatre manager on you when you took your daughter to the movies?
Helluva funny thing to say. You’ve suggested that because I’m vigilant towards molesters this somehow makes me negligent towards other dangers, and btw… wouldn’t it be funny ha ha! if Scylla’s kid got whacked by a car crossing the street.
That’s a hostile stance. It’s such a bad argument, it’s surely disingenous. I assume nothing.
Wonderful. Another little cutesy passive-aggressive statement. Apparently I know a bit more about how the odds work than you do. The argument you’re making about the odds is a stupid and faulty argument made by people who like to play games with statistics and misrepresent them to “prove” a fallacious viewpoint.
The issue isn’t that father or a relative is going to become a molester due to the proximity of a child, as your coyly presented suggestion implies. The issue is that a molester is likely to be a father or a relative to a child and have access to it.
I know I’m not a molester. The odds don’t matter. In the “coin toss” implied by your odds, I’ve already come up heads.
That makes you both wrong.
No. I’m not a statistic.
Yes, but it ain’t going to happen because my children and I are well-behaved and there is nothing in my appearance or demeanor to provoke such action. Never happened to me. Never will.
Of course, the people that it does happen to usually cry out loudly “I wasn’t doing shit!” While blaming the people who turned them in.
I’ve been to quite a few G movies, and I have a difficult time believing you had theatre management called on you simply because you were by yourself.
To others you are. Just as the guy in the park who offends your ESP both is and is not a statistic, depending on your perspective. If you insist on the right to treat everyone with suspicion, you have to, in order to be consistent, submit to being a subject of others’ suspicions – but that would probably bother you greatly, for the same reason your behavior bothers others.
But everyone else is?
-FrL-
Oh, dear. You’ve so lost your perspective.
You’re not the only one struggling with this issue - all of us parents are.
And I know for an absolute fact that we’re all dealing with finite resources. Every single one of us. There is no human being who can be vigilant 100% of the time on 100% of the possible dangers.
Here are the stats, straight from the CDC.
Here’s the detail on unintentional injury, which is in first place.
I asked for the numbers on 8-yr-old girls specifically and it told me that in 2005 there were about 1,000 sexual assaults among a population of I-don’t-know-how-many-million and now I can’t finish my thought b/c my 4-yr-old won’t let go of my left arm. But I’m sure you can look at it and see what the odds are.
And I never said it would be funny if you and/or your daughter was hit by a car, that would’ve been in poor taste.
How did this thread descend into such revolting pandering to one person’s narcissistic attitude towards their child?
Isn’t that exactly what this thread should not be about?
Yours, GorillaMan, seemingly the Pied Piper, when it comes to eight-year-old girls.
I know. But you know it’d also put my career in risk. I had a split second to make the decision to walk away, and part of it was I wanted to scream at that woman and maybe even “shake some sense into her”- and you know what’d happen then. I bash myself sometimes for making the decision to walk away and other times I think I made the right call. I still don’t know. The only thing that stays with me is the look of complete comic book eyes bugged out face white as a sheet horror on the train driver. I am so happy I saved him from that nightmare. That is what saves me from feeling like “a pervy shit”. Of course, it happened so fast, it’s also possible the Mom really wasn’t aware of how real the danger was.
And maybe you’re right about that first thing- you know when someone is acting suspicious, or lying. But you see, the description of how those guys acted wasn’t what I’d thnk of as how a real sex offender would act, what do you think?
No. Statistics apply to groups, not individuals. I don’t know where you get the idea that I treat people like statistics from any posting in this thread.
Similarly I don’t where people get off with the “overprotective” or paranoid bullshit. it may be hopeless, but I’ll try one more time to explain myself.
When you’re children are born, they are completely helpless and rely on you for everything. As a parent your goals should be to keep that child safe, happy, and provide it with love and a stimulating, challenging, and educational environment so it can grow into adulthood as a well-adjusted individual.
This is very important to you. Probably the most important thing to you.
Other people feel differently. Most are somewhat tolerant, friendly, helpful and respectful. Some are indifferent.
There are many dangers in the world to children. Most of these stem from the child’s inexperience and inability to cope. The child gains exposure to these dangers and competence in dealing with them as they are able. You judge and control the exposure.
For example, stairs are potentially lethal to a 9 month old. For a while, I was the stair Nazi, making sure all stairs were blocked off at all times. Stairs though, were mastered several years ago, and i don’t worry about those. Stairs fall into the category of physical dangers.
A pool is another. We have a pool. The pool has an alarm that goes in the water and can detect a child falling in or swimming. The pool has a fence. The fence has a gate. The gate has an alarm. The gate has a lock. The doors to our house similarly have a lock and an alarm.
I am not afraid of the pool, but because it is inherently dangerous to a child I have a system of protection several layers deep.
We also have systems in place.
Rules. The children are educated to never swim alone. The gates, alarms, and locks are always active. If we have a swim party we either hire a lifeguard or myself, my wife, or another qualified individual has their sole responsibility to monitor the pool.
Education. The kids are excellent swimmers. They’ve been taught how to float. They’ve been taught to respect the danger of the pool. They’ve been taught about drowning and how to extricate themselves from a problem.
Despite all this, it’s still possible we might have a tragedy someday. But, in order for this tragedy to occur there has to be multiple failures. No one thing should do the trick.
Paranoid? I consider it the reasonable price of having a pool. I didn’t make this stuff up. This is what is recommended for pool safety by several pool manufacturers.
So, at home we have a controlled and safe and fun environment. Or, as much so as we can make it.
The school my children go to does not let strangers approach the children. The doors are locked to the outside and you have to check in. The teachers are vetted, and educated. If parents are participating in activities or volunteering to help on field trips they undergo a background check.
I am satisfied that the school is a prudent and reasonably safe environment for my kids.
In public things are very different. It is a fundamentally uncontrolled environment. We spend a lot of time in kid-friendly places where there is a higher degree of control and the physical dangers are less. But still things happen. You have to be careful. there are physical dangers but most of the dangers stem from other people.
The dangers from other people are:
Molester and pedophiles and such fall into #7. This is by far the least significant threat. Maybe only three or four times in eight years have I felt this to be an issue in a situation. I have only suspected that it was an issue about twice as many times. As I prudently guard the pool, I try to prudently guard against this all the time though. The system I try to use (and that I guess most parents use) tries to guard against all these things 1-7 simultaneously.
Typical dangers might be (taken from personal experience)
Idiot at park loses control of aggressive dog or lets it off leash and it attacks or menaces child.
Idiot drives through parking lot of Toys R US at 50mph
Idiot teenager at mall is playing rough grab ass with friends as we go to see Finding Nemo. Teenager runs full speed through ticket line with keys in his hand and accidently strikes three year old on head with keys. Teenager says “sorry” and keeps going. Three year old needs stitches.
5 Year old is feeding ducks in pond at park. Middle-aged couple walks up to look at ducks while talking to each other and accidently knocks kid into pond.
-Young adults in renaisance costumes are practicing sword fighting near playground. Kids crowd around to watch while they swing bamboo recklessly without each other. Kids get closer and closer. Young adults are talking to kids in friendly fashion. Bamboo swords are swinging very hard, and uncomfortably close to small children. Young adults seem surprised and upset when the children are ushered away from them and they get dirty looks.
-Big kids playing way too roughly with or in presence of little kids.
-Teenager on date attempts to impress girlfriend with his child-friendliness by pushing your three your old on a swing really really high.
-Unknown adult attempts to scorn correct or chastise your child. For example, you bring toy to park (a kite, say) Your child flies kite and is happy. Other child attempts to steal kite and is rebuffed. Other child cries to parent. That parent approaches your child and tells her to stop being a brat and let somebody else play with it.
-Sad neglected or troubled child attempts to attach himself to younger play group as he is ostracized by peers. Does not play appropriately. May be too physical and risk hurting your kid, or may be very bossy or bullying, or may engage in innapropriate and disturbing behavior.
-Guy in store walks right to where your child is looking, reaches over her head and pulls a piece of merchandise off a shelf, toppling other merchandise onto your child’s head.
-Skeevy person staring at your kid intently. Engaged in no other apparent activity.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Sooooooo. In public my children are always directly supervised. This also protects the general public from all the harm and inconveniences they can cause the general public which really does not care for random encounters with my kids.
I don’t want them walking into a pavillion at somebody else’s birthday party, or helping themselves to your chicken, or waking you up from your peaceful nap under a tree to ask you what you are reading. For mutual safety I don’t want them hangin out on the bike/jogging path while you are exercising. I don’t want them throwing rocks in the parking lot where your car is parked. I don’t want them screaming and fighting or building sand castles three paces from where you set your beach blanket down for a quiet day at the beach.
I supervise my kids because it protects them from all kinds of things, and it protects you.
You see, I saw that kid running towards the line where I was waiting to see Finding with Nemo. I could have stood out and blocked the kid or glared at him as he came towards me, but I didn’t want to make a big deal. The consequences were stitches.
Sadly, a large minority of people do not act courteously or appropriately. Now, I really don’t care if I hurt their feelings. People are often self-centered and oblivious of the dangers they create.
I understand that if my child initiates an interraction with you, that was not your choice and i really have no right to enforce my will over your actions. In such an instance where you react courteously and appropriately to my child’s intrusion I will usually approach and ask if she is bothering you. Thank you for your patience and apologize. If it seems like a good interraction and you’re willing to continue, I will thank you for doing so. If I’m not happy with the interraction, I will thank you but make an excuse to go.
Generally speaking I am not happy or particularly tolerant of unknown adult parties initiating contact with my child without at first looking towards me for the permission glance. If they seek to do so, I will physically interpose myself or loudly get their attention and ask if I can help them.
I am generally not tolerant of people getting into close physical proximity with my children (unless required by circumstance like an elevator) as you’d be surprised how often a little kid can get whacked or knocked over by a careless or oblivious adult.
Typically I am consistently and automatically scanning for dangers or problems or threats the same way I am when I drive. 99.9% of these never develop to the point where action or a response is required. Any one that escalates to the point where I consider it to be a danger or innapropriate, I intervene.
Now the stories that I hear about in this thread are usually where some party is complaining about being unfairly persecuted or given the evil eye by a parent who they feel is assuming they are a child molester.
I suspect another side to some of these stories.
It’s like the episode of Cops where the guy is smoking crack while driving 100 mph and shooting his firearm at passers by. When intercepted he will inevitably say “I wasn’t doing anything! I am being unfairly discriminated against and persecuted.”
My experiences with my kids tend to run more along these latter lines.
-The group of thirteen year olds seem deeply shocked and dismayed that I am rude and intolerant of their cigarette smoking, bottle breaking, cursing, motocross party that spontaneously erupted in the toddler’s sandbox.
-The obviously drunk guy seems deeply offended that parents are unwilling to let their children participate in the tackle football game he was organizing.
-The busybody who has decided they wish to school or educate, correct, or play with your child without your permission is suddenly surprised and dismayed that you do not approve.
This last seems the least, but it’s really the worst and most common. I don’t need you to show my child the “right” way to play with something. They are happy playing the way they are.
I took my four year old fly-fishing at a nearby stream. She had her own fly rod. I showed her how to cast. We were far away from anybody else. 100s of yards. I walked ten feet away and cast my rod. This nice well-intentioned guy goes out of his way to come over and complement my daughter on her excellent casting technique. He seems nice and he’s kind of gotten the permission glance from me. Then he notices that there’s no fly on the end of her tippet.
“Hey, it looks like you lost your fly. Here, I have an extra. Let me put it on for you.”
Now she didn’t lose her fly. I purposely didn’t put one on. I didn’t want her whipping around a sharp hook.
“No. Please. Don’t do that thank you” I say.
“Why ever not? She’ll never catch a fish without a fly. You can’t fish without a fly.”
My daughter is hearing all this.
“Thanks anyway. Have a nice day. Bye.” I give him full evil eye.
Now my daughter who was perfectly happy swinging the fly string around is insistent on having a fly with a hook, and she cries and doesn’t want to fish anymore, and it’s ruined.
I’m sure that guy thought I was a jerk.
Most interractions in public place with my children and other adults are accomplished with polite glances and smiles and nods, and there’s very very rarely a problem. Very rarely do I need to intervene or express disaproval or throw a glance.
When I do, or when I see it happen to somebody else, it’s usually a sure bet that the asshole who decided to set up his archery target in front of the jungle gym is going to act all hurt and put upon by us parents’ overprotectiveness and paranoia.
Sorry guys. Where there is smoke there is often fire. If you are getting these glances and things a lot. Chances are you’re doing something to deserve it.
Btw, my opinion is you did right. If I had been the parent i would have kissed your feet and bought you a year’s supply of beer.
You’ve hit the button. You really don’t have a clue, and I hate to think what your daughter will have to experience as she grows into a (gasp) woman, and how you might be fucking things up along the way.
OK yeah I agree this guy was ignorantly well-meaning. Why did you give him an evil eye? Even if he deserved it, you are Christian I presume? Shouldn’t you have forgiven him instead of perpetuating the wrong? I don’t think an evil eye presented any opportunity for learning for this guy.
For your most recent long post as a whole, I think you are being generally overprotective and paranoid. Just my opinion, I don’t have kids, so if I was in your shoes I wouldn’t worry 'bout it. I wouldn’t feel right if I didn’t speak my word 'tis all.
First off, This guy was arguing with me about what was right for my kid. He knows my kid for ten seconds, and he’s disagreeing with me.
Second off, he’s disagreeing with me and contradicting me in front of my kid.
Third off, he should have known that sharp little barbed hooks are not really good things for three year olds to be swinging around at high velocity.
Fourth off, I couldn’t contradict the veracity of what he was saying to my child. Once it was pointed out to her, it was obvious that she needed a hook to catch a first. When he said this to her, the first thing she did was to look and see if I had a hook.
If I tell her she doesn’t need a hook, I will be lying and she will know it. I try not to lie to my kids.
Fifth off, she would have been perfectly happy to swing her rod and line around for the next hour or so. I had a magical experience planned out. In the off-chance I hooked a fishI would make an excuse like I had to tie my shoe, hand her my pole and say “My Gosh, you caught a fish.” Instead she’s going to cry and be upset because I won’t let her have a hook so that she can fish right. She will not be happy. She will not want to fish again (I tried another time, and her first question was if she could have a hook.)
Sixth off, I needed him to go away immediately in the off chance I could salvage the situation.
Seventh off, he pissed me off and I can be a jerk.
Eighth off, He had not really demonstrated his judgement to be child-worthy in my mind. I didn’t want him to have the chance to fuck up something else.
Did I mention he pissed me off?
No problem. It is my goal to be overprotective and paranoid to a certain degree. If a five is perfect on a one to ten scale, I’m shooting to be in a 6.5-7.0 range. That’s where I want to make my errors.
I drive like this too. I’ve been driving 25 years without an accident. I know lots of people that got into accidents that weren’t there fault. I try to go the extra steps that gives me a fighting chance to avoid those, too.
My kids are happy. I don’t keep them cloistered. My eight year old is at a sleepaway summer camp. Is it as safe and controlled an environment as I could give her? No, but the benefits outweigh the risks, and she likes it. I worry a little bit, but not too much.
In the final analysis I’m not really soliciting opinions. I am the legal guardian. I’m the boss. We’re doing it my way. Period. I’m sure that guy pushing the swing thought I was being paranoid, but if she fell off and hurt herself he would just say sorry. My daughter and I will have to live with the consequences.
I decided when she was born that I was going to the very best I could. I knew that meant other people might disaprove, or that I might piss other people off.
Here’s an example. The Doctor told us to limit exposure to strangers for our newborn for the first ninety days, especially flu season. My mother in law flew from CA to see our newborn. There was a big reunion then. It was early December. My mother in law wanted us to bring the baby and show it off at the reunion. It was three weeks old.
There would be about thirty kids at this reunion and my experience was that usually a third of them had some kind of bug. I said “no.” My mother-in-law argued with me. Told me she’d raised three kids, and I didn’t know what I was talking about.
It got ugly and caused a rift that’s lasted years. My wife backed me up, and that cost her a lot.
Do I regret the decision? No. I think it was the right one, and I err on caution where the well-being of my kids is concerned. I want everybody else to think I’m a little overprotective.
I really don’t care about fair, or feelings, or anything else in this. My daughter’s well-being comes first.
I think that’s the correct way to be.
The very idea that anybody would expect it to be different is insane as far as I’m concerned.
In the final analysis, if I piss off you off and you think I’m a jerk because I’m overprotective… I’m ok with that.
If my child suffers because I was afraid to hurt your feelings or have you think I am a jerk, than I think that I am a failure and unworthy to be a parent.
You write very eloquently and I can see where you are coming from. I think it’s your above statement and its ilk that are causing all the recent friction in this thread. I understand you’re not soliciting opinions, but you seem to be defensive when people disagree with you. Yet, you say things that make it very easy for people to get angry and disagreeable. I’m confuzzled.