Does it not make just a little sad to know your daughter will be suspicious of everyone also?
If they are interracting with my child, they can be very sure that it is their problem and they should take this problem very seriously.
I could not care less about their feelings.
If you go into Walmart and the buzzer goes off, they get to look in your bag. If you don’t like it, stay out of Walmart.
If you do not accept my authority and are not willing to be inconvenienced, then do not seek to interact with my children. I consider your interraction as tacit acceptance of these preconditions and they are not negotiable or subject to debate.
I’ll try it another way.
If I am walking in the woods with my daughter and a bear jumps out and attacks, I am going to die fighting the bear to protect my kid. I am not going to run away and leave my kid to get eaten.
Cool?
Ok. If you are going to walk in the woods with my daughter, I am going to decide what I think you will do if the bear jumps out. Will you run away or will you die fighting so she lives?
If I think you are going to run away, you can’t take her for a walk in the woods.
Now, there are lots of bears and there are lots of woods and there are lots of fights. These are metaphors. Make no mistake though. If parent X walks up to me and invites my daughter over for a playdate with his kid he and I are going to have a nonverbal discussion about the woods and bears. He will first show me that he is not a bear and no fight is currently necessary. When I accept this he will let me know that he will die fighting bears as necessary while my daughter is in his care.
I can’t tell you exactly how this communication takes place, but it does. If you’re a parent you’ve probably had this conversation quite a bit.
It’s really all about sending the proper signals.
No. I’m guessing you have no real idea what I’m talking about. You don’t have kids do you?
Healthy suspicion is a good thing. I act the way I do, because she does not yet have it and is not capable of understanding it.
She’s eight years old. That’s her excuse. What’s yours?
I don’t know, maybe you have a warped idea of what being a woman is…This just seems so melodramatic and over the top. I’m pretty intelligent and I don’t assume every guy around me would rape me if given the chance–that just seems kind of sick.
Okay, this is definitely sick–“shit test”–who does that? If you’re giving a guy an opportunity to ogle your breasts and then getting pissy at him for it…that just seems so messed up. And I’ve definitely never heard of any other women doing this…
Fortunately that’s not an accurate intepretation of what I said.
That’s not I said either.
Seriously, dude. I’m a woman. Please don’t tell me what my life is like. I think you’re missing the whole point of The Gift of Fear - that fear is maladaptive if you’re always afraid. You should only be afraid of things that are actually worth being afraid of and not be afraid for the rest of the time. In fact, there’s a chapter in the book on how the media makes you afraid that there’s a child molester around every corner.
She’s eight years old. Unless you omitted some mental defect, she knows. Daddy thinks everybody is out to get us.
I know. I understand. I read the book. I’m not afraid. I’m not afraid of my car not starting because I keep it well-maintained. I’m not generally fearful for my daughter’s safety because I am prudent and vigilant.
If a booger on a clam relayed to me its insight on the thought processes of a mountain goat it could not be less insightful or valid.
Scylla, I am a woman. As a child I looked older than my actual age, and once I approached puberty I got a certain amount of inappropriate attention from men who (mostly) didn’t realize how young I was. I was raped, at gunpoint, on a sunny Saturday morning while walking the dog. So I think I have some idea “what it is like to be a woman”.
However, not to put too fine a point on it, I think you are absolutely paranoiac on this topic. I do not go around looking at each and every man I meet and think “he might be a rapist”, and any woman who does probably could benefit immensely from a good psychologist.
In the situations that I find myself in on a daily basis I feel just as safe and relaxed as anyone else, male or female. Obviously there are some situations that present more risk, but those situations are for the most part not gender-specific; if you are “wild and drunk at a bar” you are more likely to be taken scammed, molested, robbed, or otherwise victimized than when sober regardless of whether you are male or female (although the type of victimization varies according to the sex of the victim). In fact, in most “risky” situations men are at greater risk of assault and / or injury than women are.
The vast majority of men I have met are not rapists, not predators, and not dangerous. If I’m walking home after midnight and some male person comes along and seems to be following too closely, yeah, I’ll be nervous until he goes away. But the average random guy, at work or at a party or in a bar or at the supermarket, is just a random guy, unless and until he behaves in an inappropriate manner. And if he does, I’ll most probably be annoyed and maybe angry, not scared.
Statistically speaking, the men your daughter should fear most are you yourself, her brothers if any, and when she gets older her boyfriend(s) and husband(s). I do not think it is desirable or useful for her to fear any of these people simply because they are male.
Teaching your daughter that “all men are potential rapists” isn’t likely to help much either now or in her later life. She would be much better off learning that she has the right to refuse attention she does not want, that most men will respect a refusal that is clearly and firmly stated (although not necessarily with good grace), and most persons (male or female) will support her on that point.
She should also learn that “not being able to beat the guy up” does not translate to “helpless and defenseless”. If all else fails, screaming really loudly can be quite effective, as a deterrent and in summoning assistance.
Also, although I do not yet have children of my own I babysit quite often for several of my colleagues and their children of varying ages. I don’t find your “meaningful glances” discussion to be substantially reflective of reality as experienced at the playgrounds and social engagements around here, and I strongly suspect that the other party to these “exchanges” isn’t reading anything from you other that you are hyper-protective and maybe a little weird.
JRB
Then could you please better explain what you did mean? When I saw this:
earlier, I actually mistook it for a whoosh. None of this in any way reflects my experience as a female. I’m out and about all the time in odd and skeevy places by myself. Sure, there are some places I’d rather not be at certain times–the downtown bus stop around sunset, or something–but there is no overpowering fear hanging over my shoulders constantly. Besides, judging from your example, there are places you don’t want to be alone either. Sure, I might get molested. You might get mugged and your wallet stolen. Neither of us are invincible. But just as you (hopefully) don’t live with the fear of getting robbed hanging over your head, I certainly don’t live with the fear of rape hanging over mine. Obviously, a woman who has experienced rape, molestation, or something similar has grounds for more anxiety for me, but this certainly does not apply to a majority of people.
Neither do I feel that I am constantly looked at as an object of lust. I have normal day-to-day interactions with men I don’t know everyday. Sure, I’ve gotten catcalls and some more impolite approaches, as well as polite offers to buy me a drink, but not from every dude on the street. I don’t feel devalued, and flattered occasionally. There is nothing inherently wrong with being treated as “an object”–the problem lies in being treated as an object all the time. Do you view every woman as a sexual object, or are most of them just other people? Do you believe that women are incapable of seeing men as objects, and if one did, would you be as offended as you believe women are?
So no. I don’t find it extremely difficult to trust. Sure, there are creepy guys out there who might hurt me, but there are ones that hurt other men, and women who can bring quite a level of harm to both genders. No one, male or female, can afford to live in total paranoia. A weirdo might try to follow me into a dark alleyway, but a woman may pick my pocket, a dog may bite me, or I could get struck by lightning. None of this, however, stops me from living a normal life relatively free of fear.
Finally, you keep mentioning that a woman can be “easily overpowered” by “any man.” I recognize this as a fairly legitimate generalization, because men are usually larger and stronger than women. But I’m sure you realize that there are exceptions, and that some women–plenty of whom you would never suspect–go armed for various reasons. God help the man who would try to hurt one of them. I wouldn’t necessarily view an average women as defenseless when she may be carrying a knife or a firearm. (For the record, I doubt that you hold this view, but it comes off that way in your posts.)
So please, offer a little clarification, because judging from what I’ve read, you seem a little off on your perception of how women view the world.
[QUOTE=JR Brown]
Scylla, I am a woman. As a child I looked older than my actual age, and once I approached puberty I got a certain amount of inappropriate attention from men who (mostly) didn’t realize how young I was. I was raped, at gunpoint, on a sunny Saturday morning while walking the dog. So I think I have some idea “what it is like to be a woman”.
Conceded.
Probably not overtly. I would guess though that you pretty much size up people automatically, and it’s no big thing unless your “threat detector” goes off.
Do you have a cite for this that shows higher risk for men in equivalent situations than a woman?
Never said they were. I said “potential.”
That seems prudent and normal and does not conflict with anything I’ve said.
Nor do I.
Why not? It’s true. I thought my use of “potential” was pretty clear that not all men were actual rapists.
Agreed. That is something that she is ready to understand, and I think she is advanced in her process of integrating it.
She’s eight years old. I do not yet think she truly understands that it’s possible that an adult could try to seriously physically harm her. It’s too abstract and outside her experience. She’s just a kid. She doesn’t know what rape is. If an adult acted with assumed authority she probably would not understand what was happening.
Recognizing a threat and providing meaningful resistance whether by screaming or fighting are not things she’s yet capable of.
I take the fact that many in this thread are both aware and complaining about this process and the inconvenience it causes them as independant corroboration that it does in fact exist.
You said that women will give men an opportunity to treat them like objects and see if they take it…that sounds pretty manipulative to me. And you said that it’s impossible for a woman to ever fully relax or let her guard down because the threat of rape is always there. I mean, I’ve been in bars, I’ve let my guard done, I’ve even done a few stupid things, but despite being having on one occasion been the victim of an assault, I don’t go around thinking that if given the chance, most guys would try to rape me.
I started a thread earlier this year asking if women felt unsafe going to bars and drinking alone, and female dopers responded in various ways (yes, no, sometimes) but their concerns were rarely about safety and mostly about being bored alone or not having anything to do. I don’t think most women’s experiences come anywhere close to what you’re saying.
And yet you continue to reply, every time I post!
I know I’m not a woman, so I just base things on my best guess as to what it would be like.
I have to say that neither you, nor Freudian nor Jr is saying anything that particularly disavoys me of my initial assessment.
Jr was raped. Freudian was assaulted. You concede scary or unsafe experiences with men that were cause for concern. You all seem to be cognizant of creepy situations and potential dangers.
These things though are foreign to my experience as a man. I doubt that you are obsessed by them or that you live in fear. They are component to your life that does not exist in mine. I only understand them by analogy.
I’m not saying we live in fear. At the same time we all know somebody, usually several somebody’s who have been raped. We all know several somebody’s who were molested. Most every woman has a story or two about a scary situation they were in, where they were in legitimate fear of being raped and assaulted. A close call.
For men, or at least me, it’s different. I’ve never had that fear or that situation. I have however been alone with a strange woman who did not know me and felt that women’s discomfort. I’ve felt myself being sized up as a potential threat.
That’s not foreign to me.
I do not want to be perceived as a threat and I try to be considerate and appropriate.
But if two out of the three women I am speaking to are telling me they’ve been assaulted or raped and all three report that they have had multiple scary scenarios, than I find it difficult to believe that it’s not an issue.
I don’t mean to suggest that you are cowed or live in fear, or that you are helpless or anything like that. Just that it’s an issue or a concern that is different for you as women than for me as a man.
I would prefer that it not happen to my daughter and I try to act prudently so that it doesn’t. I intend to continue to do so until such time as she is able to take over the responsibility herself.
I hope that she will be prudent and wary without being fearful.
In fact, I hope that she has your attitudes. They seem healthy and reasonable.
The fact of the matter is that Daddy is going to worry, and Daddy is going to err on the side of being overprotective. I know that.
Gotta pick the low-hanging fruit.
Dude, that’s not my fruit.
No soap, radio.
Conceded. At the same time if you are going to tell me that I’m in wrong in thinking woman need to be prudently concerned about being raped than you’ve picked a hell of an odd way to make that point.
I’m sorry to hear that happened to you.
Probably not like that. But I’ll bet you do a quick automatic assessment without thinking about it. The only time you probably think about it is when that “threat detector” goes off.
I’m a man. I don’t have that. My daughter is 8, she doesn’t have it.
Hmmm. Not sure I agree. Do you have a cite?
Nope. The small minority that are don’t where signs advertising it though, do they?
Seems healthy and prudent and a good attitude. But what you are missing here is that you are aware of it I’m not. It’s foreign to me. I only understand it from what women tell me.
We may be getting hung up semantically on “potential.” I’m precise with my choice of that word. But, I agree with what else you are saying.
Here’s the thing: She looks at adults as responsible helpers. She only really understands bad people as an abstract. I don’t think she truly beleives that an adult could actually want to physically do her harm. I’m not sure she would fight or scream because she is trusting and is going to impart authority into any adult she deals with. We have not had a frank discussion about rape. I don’t think she’s ready. She doesn’t need it yet, and I don’t to scare her. We will discuss it when I think she can integrate without it causing her to be scared and confused. In a situation she would probably be deeply conflicted between pain, confusion, and fear, and trying to resolve the betrayal of authority (that she must obey) from the adult.
She can’t deal with it at your level, yet.
I want to be a good Dad and get to the level where she can understand and deal with it reasonably (as you appear to.) It seems to me that it’s something you are aware of and wary about, but that you don’t live in fear or let it rule you.
I hope I’m good enough that I can help her attain your attitude without your unfortunate experience.
Since quite a few people in this thread have commented on it and ran afoul of it, I don’t think I’m the only one doing it.
Scylla–thank you for clearing up your viewpoint slightly. It seems much more sensible than what I had earlier gathered. However, there is a difference between being “cognizant of creepy situations and potential dangers” and “being suspicious of everyone,” the latter of which I believe you implicitly confirmed earlier in the thread. I might send out ‘don’t mess with me’ vibes to a guy a few benches down at the bus stop alone at night, but I’m not beaming them out constantly. The former involves reasoning and judgment, the latter, a better-safe-than-sorry attitude that I feel is unfairly generalizing.
However, I only know of this as it applies to me personally. I don’t have any children, so I can naturally admit to not knowing the specifics of how one applies this to parenting. Still, I think that one can be too careful.