I see that regarding all genres, not just romance. I see it about movies as well. It seems more remarkable for something to age well than not.
Like many ppl I did behave like I was in a rom com in my earliest dating experiences. Not so much ignoring a clear “no”, but thinking that seeing a girl I liked and pretty directly asking them out (and any awkwardness is “charming”) was the way to go.
In my opinion, there’s no shame in such mistakes at first, the shame would be in persisting with it, and repeatedly complaining the real world is not like the movies (I’m not accusing the OP of this, just saying this would be wrong attitude).
Judging by advice columns and such-like, freely available internet porn is having a far more significant and adverse effect on young people’s ability to relate to each other than novels or Hollywood movies.
It’s a pretty common aspect of sexuality to be turned on by things that are taboo. In real life people may role-play their fantasies with consent and boundaries negotiated in advance, but when it comes to entertainment they don’t want to watch or read about any of that; they want the fantasy itself.
That’s probably true. In romance novels, though, often the reason it has not aged well is because one of the protagonists was sexually harassing, sexually assaulting, or raping someone - often times the other protagonist, which should kill the plot dead in its tracks. It’s less of a plot problem when a rapist goes on to solve a murder mystery or kill the dragon.
I’ll give you that. One of my very favorite books from childhood-- and a Newbery winner-- has aged mostly well, except for a glow-in-the-dark spot, which is that a person with Down Syndrome is referred to as “Mongoloid.” It barely passes in 2021, because it’s in dialogue spoken by someone past middle age. In another 10 years, I’m afraid it will need to be edited, and the original word included as a footnote.
The book is The Westing Game, continuously in print since the mid-70s.
That goes back to the poster who stated that women like to be perused but only by men they “like”, not the ones they don’t like. That’s where the problem lies for the man. “Does she” or “doesn’t she”.
I love that movie. I think of it more as a comedy than a rom-com, though. I once walked by D.B. Sweeney at the Forum, and afterwards wished I’d had to courage to say “toe pick!”.
I also agree that Pretty Woman is dreck. About the only other rom-com I can think of that I actually enjoyed was American Dreamer. Good cast – JoBeth Williams, Tom Conti, Coral Browne – with a protagonist who has agency. The male lead (Conti) is actually rather passive, but it plays into the com side of the rom-com dichotomy.
A total unrealistic plot, but still a lot of fun.
Yep, if she likes you, pursuing her is romantic. If she doesn’t its creepy and stalkerish. But here is the thing…if she likes you and says no, do you really want to be with someone who plays those games? This is a woman who will be mad at you that you didn’t read her mind to bring her flowers or that when she said “yes, have fun” when you said you were going to hang with your friends, really meant “I wanted to spend the evening with you, and I will resent you spending this time with your friends because I don’t have anything to do tonight and will sit home and feel like you abandoned me.” Date a woman who at least doesn’t start the relationship with a mind reading requirement. (After a while, you should realize she doesn’t like cilantro and her favorite flower is irises - and she does like to get them once in a while.)
Nailed it.
As did you in your earlier posts. Thank you for the eloquent explanations.
This. I remember pulp romance novels from the sixties/seventies that I read when I was a teenager, borrowed from my mother and her mother, that were of the so-called “bodice ripping” variety, where the sex would be described in a way that we now recognize as rape. Somehow back in the Eighties this was still arousing (to me, that is, and being a teenager probably helped) now, not so much. Times really have changed in that sense. An early James Bond or even old Star Trek looks rather ridiculous nowadays wrt the depiction of romance.
Exactly.
Missed window.
I’m reminded of something my BIL once said-- he was joking, but I think there was a little truth: “‘No’ means ‘Yes.’ The safe word is ‘Pinecone.’”
It’s OK to play games when you are both in on it, but if she’s not letting you in on what’s really happening, that’s going to be your whole relationship.
Yes, games are fun when all who are playing know they are playing and want to be playing.
And of course there is an XKCD…
I think there’s still some hangover from the days when women weren’t allowed to say yes (except to an actual marriage proposal.)
That hasn’t been true in the USA for some time, thank goodness, or possibly thank hippies. Use your words, folks of whatever gender. And you’ll be a whole lot better off with other people who use their words.
Amen.
I’m curious. Are you personally encouraged by Hollywood? Is anyone you know personally “encouraged by Hollywood”?
I mean, I don’t watch a movie and then think to myself “I should act like that guy I just saw in a fictional movie”.
Do you do that?
It all sounds rather Tipper Gore-ish. Doesn’t it?
And while I really do believe that the media we are exposed to influences our behavior, I would address violence in general (including violence against women) before “clueless guy being clueless and using rom-com behavior towards women.”
It just reminds me of the magabites in the Jordan Klepper videos:
“That’s how men talk!” (referring to “grab 'em by the pussy”)
“really? is that how you talk? is that how your son talks?”
“no”
Well I wouldn’t put it like that, I’d say it’s more that I’m influenced, collectively, by my media environment. When it comes to dating, it was initially a strong influence; as when I was a teenager starting out I had few other references to draw from.
It wasn’t until I gained my own experience that I appreciated that real flirting and dating is nothing like rom coms or sitcoms. In fact, I would have fared better as a blank slate, with none of the misconceptions.
What a fascinating conversation about story structure, genres, etc.
Speaking personally, I hated Pretty Woman, but I have enjoyed many Ron-coms. I like most of the ones from Hugh Grant’s early career, which, now that I think about it, are mainly from the male character’s perspective.
I quite liked Long Shot with Charlize Theron and Seth Rogen, if that can be classified as a modern romcom.
I noted as a teenager that “romantic” behavior in movies was not applicable to real life. However, I do think that this kind of cultural artifact does likely influence negative behavior.