A few weeks ago, I complained about people not taking no for an answer when it came to offers of food.
More recently, a poster told her husband she didn’t want a gift for her birthday when she did want a gift for her birthday.
In both of these things, some Dopers took the line that no doesn’t always mean no.
For me, no means no. It means no in all things I say no about. Sex is one of the most dangerous areas in which no had damned well better mean no.
When, for you, does no not mean no?
I’m with you. For me, no means no also. This is partially because i’m not very good at picking up those kind of hints of “Oh, no, you don’t need to get me a present for this/but really I mean you do!”. I make it clear though that i’m going to take stuff like this literally; if they meant yes, it’s a failure to communicate on their heads, not mine.
Never.
I say what I mean and I mean what I say (I forgot where this is from). If you offer me something and I want it, I’m not shy, I’ll tell you I want it.
And if my wife insists, don’t get me anything, I won’t get her anything.
[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
Never.
I say what I mean and I mean what I say (I forgot where this is from). If you offer me something and I want it, I’m not shy, I’ll tell you I want it.
And if my wife insists, don’t get me anything, I won’t get her anything.
[/QUOTE]
You are paraphrasing the esteemed Horton, from Horton Hatches an Egg.
[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
Never.
I say what I mean and I mean what I say (I forgot where this is from). If you offer me something and I want it, I’m not shy, I’ll tell you I want it.
And if my wife insists, don’t get me anything, I won’t get her anything.
[/QUOTE]
I meant what I said, and I said what I meant.
An elephant’s faithful, One hundred per cent.
From Horton Hatches the Egg by Dr. Seuss
[QUOTE=FatBaldGuy]
I meant what I said, and I said what I meant.
An elephant’s faithful, One hundred per cent.
From Horton Hatches the Egg by Dr. Seuss
[/QUOTE]
Sounds about right. I think I read every Dr. Seuss book at least 10 times when I was a little kid. I’m actually honestly surprised nobody bought me “Oh The Places You’ll Go” after graduation.
No means no, yes means yes, and purple fuzzy clams means purple fuzzy clams.
Honest question, not a snark, to the people who don’t say what they mean: what do you feel that you gain from this strategy? What is the payoff?
When my 4yo says she doesn’t want to brush her teeth. 
After several years of marriage, there are a few times when it can be taken as insincere, in such phrases as “oh no, you don’t need to get up and have coffee with me - you should stay in bed”, most often said at 5:15 am on his early shift days. Or “oh no, don’t worry about cleaning the cat boxes - I’ll take care of them” said several times a week by both of us. And of course the dreaded “Don’t worry about my birthday”, which we both use as shorthand for “a hotel room with a jacuzzi, champagne and chocolates would be acceptable, but don’t make me be social with anyone else on my birthday”.
I say no when I mean it. But I do understand that it’s often a social lubricant (like white lies and the pretended interest of “how are you?”)
The payoff is variable depending on the person and situation.
The ‘No’ in the OP regarding offers of food was cultural (from what I remember of the thread.) The hosts assumed the OP was playing along with their customs when she was being honest by her own customs.
Saying ‘no presents’ lets one play the martyr and then get gifts anyway (Oh, you shouldn’t have - but I’m happy you did!)
In many cultures and times, ‘No’ wasn’t *meant *to mean ‘No’.
There’s a scene in Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice where the horrid Mr Collins asks Elizabeth to marry him. She refuses and he does not accept that, saying she’s refusing only to encourage him, or because it’s fashionable to refuse the first time. In that time and that society, Mr Collins was *right *- no reasonable woman would turn down his offer, personal preference did not matter, he had money, position and status - No was not an option and could be safely dismissed.
[QUOTE=Priceguy]
No means no, yes means yes, and purple fuzzy clams means purple fuzzy clams.
Honest question, not a snark, to the people who don’t say what they mean: what do you feel that you gain from this strategy? What is the payoff?
[/QUOTE]
Sometimes it means “I didn’t think my way through this entirely”, like if my husband is cooking something and asks if I want any and I say “no” and then when he’s done it smells good and I start picking at his plate, or if he asks if I care where we eat and I say “No, anywhere” and then when he mentions somewhere it sounds terrible or if he asks if I need help with something and I say no only it turns out the job is bigger than I thought. These things generally end in me getting teased by my husband, and (in a few areas) he learned to anticipate that I will change my mind.
Sometimes it means “I don’t really have the moral authority to say yes”, like if my husband asks if I want help but I know he’s enjoying what he’s doing and what I am working on is really my own project that I got myself into, or if my mom asks if I could use some money but I know my tight finacial spot is my own fault, or if someone offers me an unexpectedly generous gift. In these cases, if someone pushed I might admit “yes”, but I don’t expect or want them to push.
Sometimes it means “yes is none of your business”, like if someone asks if there is something on my mind but I don’t want to confide in them, or if someone asks if I’ve done something that is none of their business. Then it’s just a flat-out lie, but I think acceptable because privacy is important to me.
I think that I don’t always accept the first no if to accept would be to incovenience me, and I really don’t mind. Like, if I offer someone a lift home and they hesitate or say no, I assume that’s because they don’t want to put me out. I’ll push a little (not TOO much, one of my friends sincerely likes walking) to make sure it’s a refusal based on what the person wants, not what they think I want.
Reminds me of a situation I found myself a few years back when my American client was in the midst of a project with a Japanese company. The Japanese engineers were in charge of the project, and whenever the American team suggested a modification, the Japanese team said “yes.” It turned out that the Japanese had no intention of accepting any of those changes; they were using “yes” to mean “I understand” or an ambivalent “mm-hmm.” The Japanese engineers either didn’t feel they had the authority to reject the suggestions at their level, or were too polite to reject them out of hand, or didn’t want to hurt the Americans’ feelings.
The executives involved, however, had no trouble crossing the cultural gap to understand no vs. yes.
‘‘No’’ pretty much always means ‘‘no.’’
I admit sometimes I joke around with ‘‘no.’’
Husband: Did you just eat half that bad of potato chips?
Me: guilty smile No.
Husband: You liar!
But I would never allow anyone to walk away thinking I hadn’t really eaten half a bag of potato chips. It only works if he knows I’m lying.
[QUOTE=Manda JO]
Sometimes it means “I didn’t think my way through this entirely”, like if my husband is cooking something and asks if I want any and I say “no” and then when he’s done it smells good and I start picking at his plate, or if he asks if I care where we eat and I say “No, anywhere” and then when he mentions somewhere it sounds terrible or if he asks if I need help with something and I say no only it turns out the job is bigger than I thought. These things generally end in me getting teased by my husband, and (in a few areas) he learned to anticipate that I will change my mind.
Sometimes it means “I don’t really have the moral authority to say yes”, like if my husband asks if I want help but I know he’s enjoying what he’s doing and what I am working on is really my own project that I got myself into, or if my mom asks if I could use some money but I know my tight finacial spot is my own fault, or if someone offers me an unexpectedly generous gift. In these cases, if someone pushed I might admit “yes”, but I don’t expect or want them to push.
Sometimes it means “yes is none of your business”, like if someone asks if there is something on my mind but I don’t want to confide in them, or if someone asks if I’ve done something that is none of their business. Then it’s just a flat-out lie, but I think acceptable because privacy is important to me.
[/QUOTE]
Agree and add a few…
Sometimes it means “I’d rather not, but if its a big deal to you, I guess I will.” Like if someone asks for help moving. Or when I said no to the job I have now - three times like a good Minnesotan, before they came back and said “we really want you to take this job” (instead of “would you like this job.”)
Sometimes it means “not right now, but if you ask later, the answer may be yes” - like when my kids ask for popcorn. Right before dinner or right after dinner. An hour from now, the answer will likely be different.
When I’m getting a “no” phrasing has a lot to do with it - on the food/beverage issue if I say “can I get you something to drink” and the answer is a flat “No” I probably won’t ask again. If the answer is “oh, not really, don’t bother…” That I’d interpret as a social nicety for “please ask me again.”
When my husband and I are playing his “literal dance.” “Honey, would you like to do the dishes?” He answers “no” because, of course, he doesn’t WANT to do the dishes. But that really isn’t the question I’m asking - and when he does it I have to rephrase “The dishes need to get done, I’m going to clean the bathrooms now, will you do the dishes while I do that.” “Yes.”
[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
In both of these things, some Dopers took the line that no doesn’t always mean no.
For me, no means no. It means no in all things I say no about. Sex is one of the most dangerous areas in which no had damned well better mean no.
When, for you, does no not mean no?
[/QUOTE]
I’m going to disagree here, with some major caveats: Sexual roleplay is not immoral. It can be dangerous, and a lot of people who try it don’t negotiate things out properly, first. But that doesn’t mean that the problem is with the roleplay, itself.
For “no not to mean no” to be valid, it has to be freely agreed, beforehand, that that is one of the rules for the scene. There should also be a “safeword” which is used to signify that one or the other player has reached his or her limit - and can use that to signal such to the other partner, which will end the scene.
The effect of this is that, for the scene, instead of no meaning no, or stop, some other word is used.
Obviously, this is a tightly constrained situation, and one that I can only support with complete and honest communication between all persons involved. 99% of the time, no means exactly that. But I can’t say that it means it 100% of the time.
What bothered me about the OP’s second example was that the poster there was basing her complaint on the inability of her best beloved to read her mind. And that shit really sucks, IMNSHO.
[QUOTE=kunilou]
Reminds me of a situation I found myself a few years back when my American client was in the midst of a project with a Japanese company. The Japanese engineers were in charge of the project, and whenever the American team suggested a modification, the Japanese team said “yes.” It turned out that the Japanese had no intention of accepting any of those changes; they were using “yes” to mean “I understand” or an ambivalent “mm-hmm.” The Japanese engineers either didn’t feel they had the authority to reject the suggestions at their level, or were too polite to reject them out of hand, or didn’t want to hurt the Americans’ feelings.
The executives involved, however, had no trouble crossing the cultural gap to understand no vs. yes.
[/QUOTE]
Yes!
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki]
What bothered me about the OP’s second example was that the poster there was basing her complaint on the inability of her best beloved to read her mind. And that shit really sucks, IMNSHO.
[/QUOTE]
Except sometimes what it means is “I really thought it was logically a bad idea to spend any money on me, but now that it’s here I feel crappy about it” Now then, this isn’t something you should blame the other person for–it’s not their fault that they believed you. You believed you, too. But that also doesn’t mean you’re wrong for feeling crappy latter about being high minded. I feel crappy later about being high-minded all the time, and sometimes when I do, my husband comforts me, and I do like that.
I also think that if this happens for a couple years in a row, it’s possible that someone just has a genuine and not uncommon quirk that they feel they have to discourage others from spending money on them, and that if you recognize such a quirk in your partner (as long as it’s not part of a larger pattern of passive aggressive behavior), one ought to accomodate it–my husband and I each have a limited number of quirks that we tolerate in each other, and though this isn’t one of them, it’s certainly in the range of what I would call acceptable.
[QUOTE=Manda JO]
Sometimes it means “I didn’t think my way through this entirely”, like if my husband is cooking something and asks if I want any and I say “no” and then when he’s done it smells good and I start picking at his plate, or if he asks if I care where we eat and I say “No, anywhere” and then when he mentions somewhere it sounds terrible or if he asks if I need help with something and I say no only it turns out the job is bigger than I thought. These things generally end in me getting teased by my husband, and (in a few areas) he learned to anticipate that I will change my mind.
[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry but no means no. “Pretend to read my mind because I’ll get upset if you don’t know me well enough to pretend you can read my mind” means “pretend to read my mind because I’ll get upset if you don’t know me well enough to pretend you can read my mind.” Two very different things.
If you’ve got some sex-kink thing going on and you love to scream No, no, no! you better damn well have talked about it before hand and have established a safe word which means NO STOP.
[QUOTE=levdrakon]
I’m sorry but no means no. “Pretend to read my mind because I’ll get upset if you don’t know me well enough to pretend you can read my mind” means “pretend to read my mind because I’ll get upset if you don’t know me well enough to pretend you can read my mind.” Two very different things.
[/QUOTE]
There is a big difference between “read my mind” and “I can be fickle”. There is also a big difference between “I’ll appreciate it if you anticipate me” and “I’ll be upset with you if you don’t”. The person that has a fit whenever someone changes their mind can be as much an overbearing asshole as the woman that always expects psychic service and thows a fit when she doesn’t get it.