Men vs women- take NO for a answer?

[DrDeth]

@Spice_Weasel

Your OP started off with something to the effect of, “Why do women find not taking no for an answer so romantic in movies if they claim not to like it in real life?”

Seems to put the blame squarely on women for being self - contradictory.

Nope, it was putting the blame solidly on Hollywood. I know full well, that even long time ago when i was dating, that to keep asking, over and over is wrong, wrong wrong.

Now, I am not excusing men either if they “nicely stalk” a woman, even if they have been conditioned to see that on the silver screen as the way to go. Still wrong. No excuse.

There is not now, nor has there ever been a excuse for men to stalk a woman. It, outside of the movies and romances novels etc- has never been sexy. What I wanted to know is WHY Hollywood keeps showing it as sexy?

But then the thread segued into modern dating manners.

The ask out twice thing could very well be a hold over from the 70s, when that was just the way it was done. So, I am asking for confirmation, that today, getting a soft no ir a hard no, and the end, the man should just turn away and walk off. And that’s fine, if that is how Modern American Liberated women have as the new dating manners, that’s great. After all this is the 2020’s, not the 1970s’ or 1980s. Times change.

Back in the old days, men werent even supposed to ask a woman out. Matchmakers or you’d ask her parents first after seeing she showed some possible interest. Times do change.

[eschrodinger]

@RivkahChaya

I am aware of this. I’m just saying that according to my mother, people used to care a lot more about social conventions, and it did, in fact, work

It only works if everyone shares the same ones, though. Where and when I grew up, the multiple offers thing was not practiced. Also, there can be variants.

I incurred the displeasure of my mother-in-law because it took me a few visits to realize that, in some instances, if she offers the last serving of something around the table, everyone is supposed to decline so that she can take it. I hate stuff like that, but now I know what’s happening at least.

[mordecaiB]

@begbert2

Right, but the presumption you’re making is the woman can’t possibly have a legitimate reason for saying “no” that isn’t “I’d rather kiss a porcupine’s butt than spend another minute with you.”

No, I’m saying unless she says “I’m busy tonite. How about lunch Friday?” she is telling you no. Again, a no means no.

@DrDeth

So, if her Saturday just happens to be booked up, forget it, you two arent getting together?

This is going to sound bad but I can’t think of a better way to phrase it but maybe I’m misunderstanding you. Are you saying every woman that you’ve went out with has said “No, I’m busy” with no other conversation after? But they said yes the second time you asked with no follow up conversation? What I am saying is if she says Saturday is booked up with no follow up about a later date, she is saying no.

@DrDeth

I am glad that every woman now has gotten that message, that she has to then come back with “Not Saturday but Friday next week?” if she is interested. How did that message get out?

Women can also, in theory, ask a man out, right? How’s that working out?

The message got out just fine, it’s just some people miss messages and some people ignore them. It’s never going to be 100% something when you talk about people.
BTW, as a guy I loved it when a girl asked, it made me feel good.

@RivkahChaya

according to my mother, anyway, there was an understanding that something-- anything, an invitation, a loan, a gift, a favor, would be offered twice, then not spoken of again.

Not to speak badly of your mom, but older people often talk about a mythical time when everyone knew the rules and followed them. I don’t think such a time ever existed except in peoples memories. It may have been true for many in your mom’s circle but I’m sure it wasn’t everyone.

[Spice_Weasel]

I fully admit to not being alive in the 70s and have limited dating experience because I became exclusive with my husband at age 19 (year 2002.) Despite being a woman, I probably made the first move with other guys at least half the time, because I am not a patient lady and if he was not interested, I just wanted to move on. Maybe that is a turn - off to some men, I have no idea, but I have a long history of being attracted to socially awkward and/or inexperienced men who likely didn’t know how to approach the issue of dating. My husband is not socially awkward but he was pretty clueless about dating, so I did all the heavy lifting there as well.

The times I was approached by a stranger, well, it’s hard to say “no” without feeling guilty. I went on some dates with guys I wasn’t sure about and those relationships were brief and did not end well. I turned down a handful because the vibe just felt wrong. But just as asking someone out is difficult for some, it’s hard to say no to others. You feel guilty. Especially if they give you a hard time about it.

Things are indeed different than they used to be - different even than they were when I was dating. Relationships among young people are overwhelmingly established online before any hooking up is to occur. Approaching a woman in public is less socially acceptable than it used to be. Heck, the kids are even having less sex and at a later age than we ever did. I don’t entirely understand it.

[thorny_locust]

@RivkahChaya

I am aware of this. I’m just saying that according to my mother, people used to care a lot more about social conventions, and it did, in fact, work.

It would have worked with other people who followed that convention. I doubt there was ever a time when every culture even in this one country did so.

@DrDeth

it was not like that in the 70’s . Period.

Depends on who you were hanging out with. When I wanted to say yes in the 70’s, I said yes. So did a lot of other women.

@begbert2

Maybe I’ve just come to accept that I’m riddled with undesirable qualities, but I’d be okay with being explicitly sidelined for a specific attribute. Beats being left to conclude that the reason was that I was wholly unworthy as a human being.

Why on earth would you leap to that conclusion just because the person didn’t spell out a specific reason?

@eschrodinger

Reasons are, for some people, an invitation to argument and convincing

This is true.

Specific reasons may be taken as not being no’s at all, but as starting points for negotiations.

Or they may be taken as insults. ‘You just don’t turn me on’ isn’t at all what most men want to hear, even though it’s nothing remotely like ‘you are a horrible person’ – there are all sorts of reasons why person A isn’t sexually attractive to person B, and person B may not even know what the reasons are in a particular case. ‘You smell perfectly fine to my conscious mind but maybe my subconscious doesn’t like your smell or something, anyway I don’t want to go to bed with you’ is probably not going to either be useful or to go over well.

[begbert2]

@thorny_locust

Why on earth would you leap to that conclusion just because the person didn’t spell out a specific reason?

Never lacked self-confidence, have you?

I’m a creative guy, and a fairly observant one. I can notice my failings, and by the totally rational approach of setting the best possible example as the baseline, find no shortage whatsoever of ways that I’m wanting. In fact, I’m quite literally inferior in every possible way. (Everyone is, mind you, except each person who is optimal in one quality who is then suboptimal in every other way.) So if somebody fails to pinpoint one single flaw as the reason I’m unsuitable, every possible flaw becomes, simultaneously, a reasonable possibility.

If your response to reading this is, “god, what a messed up person”, well, there you go!

Worry not, though, for I have completely dismissed self-evaluation as a bad job, so I’m not bothered by it anymore. I’m still riddled with flaws, of course (who isn’t?), but I just don’t care.

[Voyager]

@Spice_Weasel

I fully admit to not being alive in the 70s and have limited dating experience because I became exclusive with my husband at age 19 (year 2002.) Despite being a woman, I probably made the first move with other guys at least half the time, because I am not a patient lady and if he was not interested, I just wanted to move on. Maybe that is a turn - off to some men, I have no idea, but I have a long history of being attracted to socially awkward and/or inexperienced men who likely didn’t know how to approach the issue of dating. My husband is not socially awkward but he was pretty clueless about dating, so I did all the heavy lifting there as well.

30 years before your time, according to my wife at least, a woman suggesting another date might feel overly aggressive. (For first dates, that is, clearly not when you were already going out.) Women back then were not used to being explicitly rejected, by being told no, only implicitly rejected, by not being asked.
Based on my daughters’ experiences, (they are about your age) things are more rational now.

And this whole thread reminds me of the famous New Yorker cartoon with the caption “Okay, how does never work for you?”

[thorny_locust]

@begbert2

Never lacked self-confidence, have you?

Didn’t know me when I was 20, did you? Or 10, which in some ways was worse.

@begbert2

I’m a creative guy, and a fairly observant one. I can notice my failings, and by the totally rational approach of setting the best possible example as the baseline, find no shortage whatsoever of ways that I’m wanting. In fact, I’m quite literally inferior in every possible way. (Everyone is, mind you, except each person who is optimal in one quality who is then suboptimal in every other way.)

By that standard everybody else is, as you’ve just said, no better. If nobody’s any better, then nobody’s inferior, either.

Or, just possibly, it’s not at all a rational approach to set the most extreme best possible as the baseline.

Plus which, when it comes to either emotional or physical attraction, there is no one ‘best possible’. The person who X finds greatly attractive may be repulsive to Y.

[P-man]

Spice_Weasel, you and your husband sound a bit like Ms. P and me (except we were not only alive in the seventies, we were also alive in the sixties). It would have taken me a long time to get up the nerve to ask her out, but we met at a party. Chances are we wouldn’t have seen each other again if she hadn’t made the first move. I was certainly clueless about dating. If I got thrown back in the pool again, I’d probably still be clueless. I have had to say “no” to another man, who didn’t want to accept that I was only attracted to women. I would have been fine with being friends, but he didn’t want to take “no” for an answer.

This clueless guy married the daughter of a romance writer. Dunno if she got tips from her Mom’s books, but I do know her Mom also made the first move when she met her future husband.

[Dangerosa]

Mom can move to Minnesota. You always say no the first time you are offered anything (its three times here). You never take the last cookie/slice of cake/bit of meatloaf. And it takes fifteen minutes from saying “I have to get going” to actually leaving.

BUT, while when I started dating in the early 1980s, saying “no, I’m busy” the first time was a soft no, by the time I was dating in the mid-90s - it was a hard no. “I can’t this weekend, but I should be free the next” was the what you said if you wanted to go out with them.

And the let them down easy is a skill women learn, because almost every woman has been called a “fucking bitch” for merely turning down a man with a clear no.

[begbert2]

@thorny_locust

By that standard everybody else is, as you’ve just said, no better. If nobody’s any better, then nobody’s inferior, either.

Or, just possibly, it’s not at all a rational approach to set the most extreme best possible as the baseline.

Plus which, when it comes to either emotional or physical attraction, there is no one ‘best possible’. The person who X finds greatly attractive may be repulsive to Y.

If you’re going to debate what’s rational, I guess you’ve forgotten what it was like when you were 10 or 20. But that’s beside the point - the question was how a person could interpret a ‘no’ given without clear reason as “every part of you is objectionable”. And the answer is that every part of you is objectionable - there is no part of a person that can’t be found wanting. It shouldn’t be surprising that a person dumped ‘without reason’ would be unable to isolate their problems to a single flaw, which means that since at least one of their flaws is demonstrably rejection-worthy, any or all of them could be.

Not to say that it’s any woman’s job to identify a man’s failings to him, of course. But it shouldn’t be too surprising to hear that some men would prefer a clear answer. (Not that it would be possible to identify those men in advance.)

As a sidenote, I’ve actually been fairly fortunate in that 2 of the 3 women I’ve courted have been quite clear in their reasoning for dumping me - they informed me that I’m literally the devil. (The joys of being an atheist who only meets mormons.) Sadly the other woman never actually confessed that my atheism was her issue, though I suspect it was, so I was left wondering about that for the many years that we remained friends.

[Velocity]

Another concept that is often missed is “willing yes” vs. “technical yes.”

There are plenty of times when someone will consent to sex, but only due to fear of consequences (i,.e,. if I don’t have sex with him, our relationship may end.) That’s only the barest-technical yes, and not an actual enthusiastic yes.

[thorny_locust]

@begbert2

for the many years that we remained friends.

That in itself shows that whatever her reason was, it wasn’t

@begbert2

that I was wholly unworthy as a human being

or

@begbert2

“I’d rather kiss a porcupine’s butt than spend another minute with you.”

But you’re correct that rational reasons are often not convincing to arational portions of the mind.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@RivkahChaya

Probably most of the decisions I made from 20-25 were not good ones, but what can you do?

Heh. Have grace for the ones that were not good but not appalling, and hold people accountable for the appalling ones.

Like, in this conversation:

Bob: Hey, Mary, I was wondering if you’re free on Saturday and would like to go do something with me.
Mary: Aw, thanks! I’m afraid I can’t.
Bob: Oh, that’s okay. What about Friday instead?

Bob’s being a little clueless, and he probably oughtta take a hint rather than put Mary on the spot like that. But I’m not sure he needs a whole lot of grief over it.

But if it continues:
Mary: Sorry, I’m busy on Friday too.
Bob: What then, when can you go out with me?
Mary: I’m not sure.
Bob: Look, is there something wrong with me? Just tell me what I’m doing wrong, would you?

Now Bob’s over the line and grief is what he gets.

Or:
Mary: Sorry, I’m busy on Friday too.
Bob: Ha ha, I see what you’re doing. You’re not gonna get rid of me that easily, I’ll win you over!

Asshole needs to stop taking his cues from 80s rom-coms, and he’s earning the grief.

That said, not all women do great here, either. There definitely are women–especially young women–who think the “decline before accepting” script is the way to go, and do it themselves, and give their male friends bad advice. It’s all a messed up bundle. No excuse for guys who go full creeper, but the message that full creeper is romantic is definitely out there.

(I remember being sixteen and having a massive crush on a girl, sitting next to her while she said, “If a guy likes me, he should just grab me and kiss me,” and me agonizing in humiliation over my unwillingness to do that. SO glad I’m not a teenager any more).

[begbert2]

@thorny_locust

That in itself shows that whatever her reason was, it wasn’t

@begbert2

that I was wholly unworthy as a human being

Oh I dunno, she didn’t have much of a social life - as in, it was pretty much me or nothing for years at a time. One could easily put together an explanatory model based around the premise that I was more entertaining than a bare wall.

(And, not to brag, but I actually am more entertaining than a bare wall. Yes, I know, hold down the applause.)

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

(I remember being sixteen and having a massive crush on a girl, sitting next to her while she said, “If a guy likes me, he should just grab me and kiss me,” and me agonizing in humiliation over my unwillingness to do that. SO glad I’m not a teenager any more).

Yikes. The ideas that pop culture can put in somebody’s head before experience shoves them back out.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

Woody Allen, Play it Again, Sam

Allen: That’s quite a lovely Jackson Pollock, isn’t it?
Museum Girl: Yes, it is.
Allen: What does it say to you?
Girl: It restates the negativeness of the universe. The hideous lonely emptiness of existence. Nothingness. The predicament of Man forced to live in a barren, Godless eternity like a tiny flame flickering in an immense void with nothing but waste, horror and degradation, forming a useless bleak straitjacket in a black absurd cosmos.
Allen: What are you doing Saturday night?
Girl: Committing suicide.
Allen: What about Friday night?”

[DrDeth]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Heh. Have grace for the ones that were not good but not appalling, and hold people accountable for the appalling ones.

Like, in this conversation:

Bob: Hey, Mary, I was wondering if you’re free on Saturday and would like to go do something with me.
Mary: Aw, thanks! I’m afraid I can’t.
Bob: Oh, that’s okay. What about Friday instead?

Bob’s being a little clueless, and he probably oughtta take a hint rather than put Mary on the spot like that. But I’m not sure he needs a whole lot of grief over it.

Yes, I like that. Nicely put.

[RivkahChaya]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Bob: Hey, Mary, I was wondering if you’re free on Saturday and would like to go do something with me.
Mary: Aw, thanks! I’m afraid I can’t.
Bob: Oh, that’s okay. What about Friday instead?

Actually, that’s not a bad way to go. It is plausible that I am genuinely busy both nights, so if I say that I am also busy on Friday, I can add something like “What did you have in mind?” Prompting a discussion to find a day we are both free.

But two times “Busy” with no prompt is a hard “No.”

What really sucks is when Bob says “When are you free?”

This forces Mary to claim that she is washing her hair every single night for the next six months, or taking an intensive class that requires five hours of study every evening, seven days a week, or that she will be moving to Lichtenstein soon, and doesn’t want to get involved with anyone in the US right now.

Or to tell Bob that prior to his invitation, she merely didn’t find him dating material, but could see herself playing Dungeons and Dragons with him; however, since the invitation, she now perceives him as a creep, and the last person she wants to hunt treasure with.

[thorny_locust]

@RivkahChaya

I say that I am also busy on Friday, I can add something like “What did you have in mind?”

You can do that the first time you’re asked. No need for there to be a second date suggested for you to make it clear that you’re declining the specific day but not the overall invite.

I do agree that the one second ask isn’t as bad as pressing further; but it’s not great, especially following immediately after the first in that fashion.

[eschrodinger]

I think if someone answers with a flat “I can’t.” (Preceded by “I’m sorry” or not.) You either let it go, or you put the choice of the next move on them.

So after Mary’s “I can’t,” Bob can just say, “oh, that’s too bad.” And leave it at that, or say something like, “Well, if you’d like to do something together sometime soon, let me know.”

Chances are, if Mary were really interested, she’d have said more than, “Sorry, I can’t.” But if she didn’t think to, and still is interested, she presumably still has the power of speech, with which to let Bob know.