Men who avoid women at work because of fear of alleged reports of sexual harassment

Perhaps a more likely scenario is you run into a coworker in the hallway who you only see on the basketball court at lunch and he tells you, “Hey man! You look good. I hardly recognize you with regular clothes on. You clean up well!” If that’s man-to-man, there’s the full understanding that he’s just being joking and doesn’t mean anything else. But if he says it to a woman, there’s the possibility that she may not really know if it’s a joke or is flirting. For a man who may be have a naturally jokey personality, stuff like this can be a minefield since it can be taken so many ways. Even if it doesn’t raise to the level of HR-worthy, it’s likely to cause discomfort with women. The same thing might be true with the men he says stuff like this to, but men are more likely to just think the guy is a bore rather than a sexual harasser. But in general, I don’t think men are as bothered since men often have a more juvenile sense of humor. The male coworker who plays basketball would likely respond with something similarly jokey as well.

I want to also add, When faced with a female co-worker, employee, or boss, who is a hugger. I do that awkward concave my chest so her boobs aren’t mooshing into me and cursory double tap on her back.

Am I the only one that does that? Males, do you do that? Females, do you sense when when males do that?

I don’t hug people I don’t know well, and don’t hug people I do know well unless I’m expecting them to welcome the hug (and am in the right sort of mood myself.) If I understand correctly what you’re describing, I think that I’d interpret that as a person not welcoming the hug, and I’d stop hugging them. But I wouldn’t usually consider hugging people in a work context to be appropriate in the first place, even when there’s nothing sexual about it, which there often isn’t. Usually if somebody tried to hug me in such a context I’d be visibly backing up away from them.

The fear is that in this day, especially of me too, there is a real possibility of the man being guilty until proven innocent … and even then he’s guilty in the mind of others.

But did that happen in this case?

I guess what I am asking is if you feel “was investigated” is, in and of itself, a punitive action?

Yes. For someone to walk by who is not a part of the conversation to take one word with multiple meanings with no context whatsoever and turn that into an investigation is punitive. It would be like me having to explain myself to our principal as part of an official investigation why you heard the word “breast” while you walked by my classroom and I was talking to another teacher. FTR I was talking about how I prefer to eat a chicken breast as opposed to a chicken thigh.

Being investigated…is not a career enhancing event.

You know, in some places (not necessarily in North America) you (maybe…) have to kiss people. Male and/or female. The appropriate number of times. Sometimes there is hugging and/or hand-shaking, too.

“Arturo Illia recibe al Presidente de Francia, Charles de Gaulle.”

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Umm_Kulthum_and_Fairuz%2C_Beirut_-_1967.jpg
“Umm Kulthum and Fairuz, Beirut - 1967”

Nevertheless, I am uncomfortable with it. Male or female.

I would have to agree with this assessment. And even if it was an “innocent” mistake, a reasonable person should have known hiding a sex toy inside a piece of equipment was completely inappropriate.

Yes, I know. My uncle who settled in Italy used to make rather a point of that when he visited the USA, even when people were clearly uncomfortable with it.

He died nearly 20 years ago, and I miss him; but I don’t miss that aspect of him, though 20 years ago it wouldn’t have occured to me to call him on it. – I was entirely willing to do cheek kisses with him myself, so that part of it wasn’t an issue. And I think he thought of the discomfort of American men with this as homophobic, and pushed against it for that reason – in one of the few ways he could safely publicly do so, during much of his life. Nevertheless even in the previous century it made me vaguely uncomfortable that he’d embrace and cheek kiss people who clearly were unhappy about it.

Do you see that as being punished by the administration, or punished by the lady that reported it?

If HR were simply to “take the word” of the employee making the complaint there would be no need for an investigation. An investigation occurs in order to find out if there is any merit to complaint (and to cover the company’s ass just in case there is). Records of an investigation aren’t typically kept in an employee’s personnel file and probably won’t be accessible to anyone outside of HR or someone very high up in your organization. Though nobody likes being investigated so I can understand why someone would feel as though it were a punitive action.

I have never initiated a hug at work. Many years ago, an older man hugged me at work, and i squirmed awkwardly enough that he didn’t do it again. (He also said, when i was brand new, “do you mind if i smoke?” at a meeting, and when i replied, “yes, thanks for asking, i do mind” he looked at me like i had 2 heads. Oddly enough, after an initial rough patch, we got along fine.)

So :woman_shrugging:

In my social circles it’s become the norm for people to say, “you’d you like a hug?” before reaching out, so hugs are rarely unexpected or unwelcome.

I’ve had exactly this interaction, but at my square dance club, not at work. I ordinarily wear shorts and a t-shirt when i dance. But one day i was rushed coming from work, and was wearing a suit. A couple people (men and women) commented on my cleaning up well. I did not take it as inappropriately sexual. :wink:

Emphasis added

And when it comes time for a promotion, bonus, raise, deciding who to fire. How would having that investigation on your record somewhere play out?

You’re assuming it’s not a “guilty unless you prove yourself innocent” investigation. HR departments play politics all the time in corporations.

If it’s not accessible outside of HR, probably not at all. At least, not at my employer.

But that’s true no matter what the topic.

Again, there needs to be a way to communicate social issues that isn’t punitive but that doesn’t put the responsibility entirely on the person that is offended/upset. It’s difficult to be direct about sensitive things, and some people are incredibly incapable of hearing this sort of thing from a coworker. So you get a situation where a woman is uncomfortable and has tried to make that clear, but it gets ignored or met with disbelief. So now she can either “punish him” and “damage his career”, or live with it.

It’s possible I have rose colored glasses on. But on the flip side, I just don’t assume there’s some sort of conspiracy stacking the deck against some innocent man who has been unfairly accused of harassment. So, yeah, I’m going to assume we’re not looking at a “guilty until proven innocent” investigation here. If that’s the case, you don’t have to worry about promotions, bonuses, or raises as you’ll probably just be fired.

I have been involved in dozens of claims of racial discrimination, sex discrimination and sexual harassment (none against me!) over the last 30 years as a manager/director of several thousand people.

I cannot think of a single one that was completely unfounded. Though there have certainly been many where we have protected the offender because they were considered valuable to the company in some way. And I have seen many instances where employees, managers (even my manager) have destroyed documents, intimidated complainers and witnesses and even “coached” employees to perjure themselves to “protect the interests of the company” aka don’t get fired for sticking your neck out for a disposable colleague.

And there have certainly been many instances where after we have settled a claim and gotten an NDA the offender whether retained or not, will delusionally or disingenuously claim that they were completely exonerated, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Whenever someone says that my brother, husband, friend, etc was ruined by a baseless complaint, I never take it at face value. By definition the reporter only knows one side of the story. Unless the matter goes to an actual public trial, no one outside the company knows the details.

There have certainly been many cases where something was borderline and no disciplinary action was taken, but the offending behavior stopped. But a claim manufactured out of whole cloth, I don’t believe I’ve ever seen.