My point is just that having to avoid accidently giving the appearance of sexual or romantic interest isn’t some esoteric burden men have to bear and women are oblivious to. It’s only the secondary issue, of women feeling threatened or corrected, that is gendered.
“I act differently when extending an invitation to a member of the opposite sex” is a universal experience.
If “obvious disinterest” were actually effective in deterring men from making sexual advances, about 90% of this problem would go away on it’s own.
Maybe your company needs to provide sexual harassment training. Because the mere act of asking a female coworker if she wants to have lunch or even drinks with you or the mere act of being friendly is generally not construed as “harassment”. Even asking a coworker out isn’t “harassment” so long as you are polite and don’t keep pushing if she says no and there is no discrepancy of power or implied quid pro quo.
Years ago, a female colleague and I were having dinner after an after-party at a conference we were attending. Completely “non-romantic” as that wasn’t the nature of our relationship. Anyhow, we are talking and she’s telling me all these stories from her younger days at the company when creepy middle-aged senior partners used to hit on her. Which I had witnessed with other young attractive associates. The “let me walk you to the subway” bit was one of the approaches she mentioned.
Sure enough, within a few minutes, another male colleague who was a student of the “creepy senior partner pickup school” appeared and was using the “let me walk you to the subway” line, along with “I know an after-after party” line with a look on his face that he clearly didn’t want me coming along.
The point being is that men generally don’t have to worry about acting creepy as long as they DON’T ACT CREEPY. For example:
And even so, as other posters have mentioned, there will sometimes be some honest uncertainty on either or both sides as to whether something inappropriate might be intended. But the vast majority of such uncertainties resolve themselves harmlessly among people who are generally perceived as trustworthy and non-creepy.
I don’t understand this reply. I presume that, in the last several years, most of my colleagues aren’t interested in me romantically. Of the slim few, if any, that were interested when I was going into the office, I’m guessing they weren’t younger colleagues who had just joined the company I was working at. I think that scenario applies to most men of my (middle) age. Nevertheless, I’m aware that some men of my age will attempt a romantic relationship with their younger colleagues. For multiple reasons, I’m not interested in making that attempt. One of those reasons is that if the attempt fails, I’ll have a reputation as a creepy older man. I’d like to avoid that reputation, and therefore I’m cautious in some situations about how I interact with my female co-workers. That caution includes avoiding actions that could be perceived as an attempt to establish a romantic relationship, such as asking a woman I barely know out to lunch, or even to walk down to the local food court.
I really don’t know how I’d apply that concept/practice to an obviously gay man who’d recently joined my work team. Most likely, I’d feel a bit of uncertainty and discomfort, and wouldn’t provide the invitation to lunch. But it would be a different sort of awkwardness I was avoiding, not a concern that the invitation could be viewed as an unwanted come-on.
Oh absolutely. I certainly suffer from it to. I just use my big boy brain and override the feeling when an attractive woman at work is being nice to me. “Do you think she’s coming on to us?” says the gonads. “No,” says the brain, “she’s just chatting because she’s friendly, and we’re just going to chat back about work or some other topic, and not make this all weird.”
I’m not sure about that, I get nervous either way! I also recognize that to the woman receiving the invitation, the motives are unclear. My point is that the man making the invitation should be behaving in such a way that the woman is clear that his motives are professional or friendly, not sexual. It will take time.
This thread has lots of stories of men and women behaving completely appropriately with each other. The woman who feels safe eating dinner with a male colleague after a few drinks at a conference mixer, is probably also going to feel safe with that same man if they’re working late, or he offers to walk her to the subway.
It’s the responsibility of men to behave in such a way that the women are safe.
I know she’s really cute, and in different circumstances you’d totally be chasing that, but not now, not here, and not her. Just set that stuff aside, treat her like a person, and get back to work.
And I don’t get nervous either way. When the pandemic hit, I reached to a whole lot of colleagues to set up “virtual lunches” and “virtual coffee breaks” with them. Yeah, not in person, but my point was to maintain contact with them, and I was pretty indifferent to the genders of the people I reached out to. I’m not very sensitive to the genders of people I ask to lunch in the flesh, either.
Would you guys who avoid being alone with women, have the same problem with an obviously gay woman?
The reason I asked is because I realized that I would not feel as awkward, for lack of a better term, being alone with a gay women as I would with a man. So does that mean it’s not just about sex? I don’t know, but I wish we could get past this somehow.
Maybe people could just talk to each other. If you’re a man, maybe instead of not asking the new female if she wants to go for a sandwich, ask it differently. Tell her you know it’s not usually done, or whatever, and explain that you are not hitting on her, and then ask her about the casual work lunch. I’m sure someone around here could word that better than I can. But damn, we’re grown ups. It just shouldn’t be this damn hard.
We’re all so afraid of each other. Afraid of being sued, afraid of being raped. At least that’s how it feels lately.
Blergh, I’m feeling rather discouraged about our species.
Yeah, here’s where it gets weird and uncertain for me.
Are you there doing legitimate work? Then how would that be a contrived situation?
That’s not what that means. Quid pro quo in this context typically means stuff like “I’ll give you that promotion/project/big account if you sleep with me”. It can be stated or implied.
Asking someone if they need help is not sexual harassment.
I mean, touching someone’s arm or tapping them on the shoulder to get their attention is probably fine. The creepy guy I mentioned before always used to find excuses to give pretty young associates and interns hugs. You don’t need to hug.
Yeah, I would probably not say that.
Depending on my relationship, I would probably not invite a female colleague out for one on one drinks. Although that isn’t sexual harassment, so long as other conditions are met (like you’re not her boss).
By “pressure” I mean like “here do this shot”!
I’m flattered but actually I don’t want to have sex with you.
You do realize that asking if you can give me the updated meeting agenda isn’t a come on?
In the future avoid the word debrief to lessen the chances of a misunderstanding.
Oh NOW you tell me.
There have been several times when I’ve been in the office late doing work that needed to be done after-hours. A few of those times, there was only one other person in the office, who coincidentally was also working late. Sometimes the other person was a man, sometimes it was a woman. When it was a woman, I felt like I needed to be extra careful to be non-threatening. The difference between how I treated a woman, versus how I treated a man, was mostly no big deal - I refrained from cursing at the computer and didn’t go over to her workstation to make small talk.
But what was more of an issue was when I was close to leaving. With a man, the etiquette was easy. Ask how it’s going. Ask if he’s finishing up soon. If he says yes, suggest we walk to the train station together. With a woman, those same actions seem to me to like they could be interpreted as flirting. And the suggestion to walk to the train station together would mean we’re alone, out of the office, and in a non-professional circumstance. I’m not saying that it’s sexual harassment for a man to ask a woman if she wants to walk to a train station together at night. But I do think it’s possible for good intentions to be misinterpreted.
I’ll also note that of the few times this happened, I did decide to talk to the woman before I left. A couple of times the woman said she still had a bit of work to do, and the other couple of times we had a nice walk while making small talk. So no difference than what happened in the same circumstance with a male colleague. But I can certainly understand why some men would choose to avoid that circumstance with a female colleague.
Are you suggesting walking to the train station together to deter crime? If so, state that. Then it’s an innocent walk to the train, and the woman will understand it as that.
If it’s not to deter crime, why do you suggest walking to the train together? Man or woman?
I’m a woman, and sometimes I’m the among the last to leave work. No one has ever offered to walk me to the train, and I live in Chicago, for god’s sake. Never had a problem walking on my own, and I’ve never felt the lack of a walking buddy.
Because it’s sociable. I’ve occasionally walked to the train station with a colleague. We just happened to be leaving around the same time. I don’t recall if they suggested it or i did.
When I was working in the office, if I left at a normal late afternoon/evening time, I’d often be heading for the train at the same time as a co-worker and we’d walk together. Generally no big deal and no difference whether my co-worker was a man or woman. It just seemed like the polite, social thing to do. Later, at night-time, when there was a small group of us in the office, often when someone was heading for home they’d tell others they were getting ready to leave. This was especially noticeable among women, who would endeavour to leave together, although I newer saw an objection if a man wanted to walk to the train station with them. I was that man a few times.
When there were only two people in the office, the dynamic felt different. I’d pretty much keep to myself, regardless of whether my remaining co-worker was a man or a woman. But if there was a period of time when I was waiting on something, I might have a quick chat with that co-worker. If it was a co-worker I knew well, no problem at all, regardless of their sex. If it was a co-worker I didn’t know well, then it was an attempt to be friendly. With a male co-worker, I didn’t worry that it might be misconstrued. With female colleagues who I didn’t know well, I did have that concern.
Now change that from being in the office together having a quick chat, to asking someone if they want to leave the office together. It seems like the polite thing to do. And yes, since you brought it up, if it was a female colleague I was suggesting to walk to the train station with, crime deterrence would be part of the basis for the offer. But on the other hand, a man with a casual working relationship with a woman, asking her to walk together to the train station late at night, just seems like a opportunity for unwanted or possibly bad intentions.
It was something I thought about on the few occasions when I was leaving the office when my last remaining co-worker was a woman. When it was a man, I didn’t have the same concerns.
The other day, my project group had a Zoom meeting scheduled with a client, but the client contacted a member of the group to cancel the meeting about 15 minutes before the meeting. The lead client contact attempted to get the meeting back on schedule, and we opened up a group chat to keep the team informed as to status.
One guy jokingly commented that it was a shame the meeting had been cancelled, as he had just put his pants on in preparation. Some light banter followed, on the general topic of whether or not wearing pants was required for such meetings and whether or not he should put his pants back on. It occured to me at the time that it was a good thing everyone on the chat was male, because those types of comments had the potential to be taken very differently by a female participant.
Sometimes there’s just a difference.
Would “okay, I’ll help you with that project but you owe me lunch/a drink” count? IMO that’s not necessarily sexual harassment, but it is quid pro quo.
~Max