Men, Women? Venus, Mars?

I’ve been a card carrying feminist for several years now (i.e. member of NOW since the mid-1980s), but not a party line feminist by any means (i.e. I can think for myself and don’t tow the party line on every topic).

I think that current thought is that there are some biological differences in how men and women process information that are beyond socialization and culture. That said, any attempt a generalizing is doomed for failure. I score on the “male” side of any gender testing - I tend toward logic and not emotion, have more male social patterns than female ones, etc.

My feminist bookclub read John Grey a couple of years ago. Some agreed with him, some didn’t. I thought he was way to much on the lip service side. That is, if your wife wants to talk, just keep saying “yes, dear.” You don’t really need to listen, since women don’t want answers anyway, just someone to talk to. If your husband never asks for directions, just leave early so he has time to get lost.

" Men did not wear them" So the corsets made for men were just admired and advertised for sale for the fun of it? Maybe 100% of all women didn’t wear them either. I’d even bet it had to do with fashion.

But other primate (the ones who don’t wear clothes) groups still have female and male jobs or male and female roles. Learned behavior? Some chimps learn to socialize with another male and others in the ape family live alone?

How much behavior changes after transexual surgery?

Try this for male and female:http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html

Not the “Feminists are anti-men” cliche again!

Maybe some are but the real aim of feminism is not for one gender to dominate the other, it is simply about equal rights.
If she does something differant but of equal value to me then it must be recognised as such.
What about a little help round the house? Or should the function of men be reduced to fertilsation and walking wallets?
Feminism is relevant to the liberalisation of men too.

Jois wrote:

Not too much. But a good amount of behavior changes as a result of taking hormone supplements in preparation for, and after, transsexual surgery.

The Standards of Care in the U.S. – and, I suppose, other nations – require everyone who wants to get Sex-Reassignment Surgery to live for at least one year in the role of the gender they want to become, before they get surgery. They also require the transsexual to pass a psychological screening of sorts before they get the green light to go under the knife.

However, in the U.S. (but not in Canada), a transsexual can begin taking hormones (estrogen & progesterone for male-to-female transsexuals, testosterone for female-to-male transsexuals) at any time. Most transsexuals start taking hormones before switching genders (roles), then switch genders and continue taking the hormones for the year before surgery. Of course, they also continue taking the hormones after surgery, since a sex-reassignment operation doesn’t actually give you a new set of gonads*.

I knew one person slated for male-to-female sex-reassignment surgery about 6 years ago. She had been taking female hormones for about a year. She reported that, before the hormones, she was only sexually attracted to women, but after being on the hormones for a few months she started to notice men.

Another male-to-female S.R.S. recipient I met had an incredibue addiciton to chocolate. She claimed it affected her rather like alcohol. She also claimed that, before she started taking estrogen, chocolate did not have this effect on her.
*) Beavis and Butthead notwithstanding, “gonads” is a gender-neutral term for either the testes or the ovaries – i.e. the organs responsible for producing gametes.

Everything except for things directly affecting horomones is learned.

Casdave if feminisim is about equal rights then why is it called feminism?:slight_smile:

I think that at the core of who we are as people, men and women are very similar if not the same. But our different physical makeup causes us to perceive and react to circumstances in the world very differently. The feelings for people I love and care about are probably the same feelings women have toward the ones they love. But how I develop relationships and the criteria for making my friends is quite different than how a woman would do it. My testosterone makes me more aggressive and since aggression is something that is a norm for me, I view the world with those eyes. I make my decisions with those eyes. I judge others based on the composite person I am, which includes my masculinity.

I recently watched a movie called “Clockwatchers” and it gave me a lot of insight into why men would start a war when a woman wouldn’t. In the movie a woman, who works as a secretarial temp has a diary she had been keeping at work, get stolen. After several days she realizes another woman at work has stolen it because the other woman is envious of her life. She finally confronts the thief, and without saying a word, she stares into her eyes as she slaps a note on her desk that says, “I want my notebook back”. The thief wordlessly reaches into purse, pulls out the notebook and hands it to her. The next day the temp sits down opposite the thief in the lunchroom and calmly sets the diary on fire while she glares into the thief’s eyes. Finally she opens up her lunch sack and parodies eating the lunch the way the thief eats her lunch. The thief’s face looks violated and horrified and she leaves in humiliation. The next day the temp finds a new empty diary lying on her desk with a little note saying, “I’m sorry”. The conflict is resolved and maybe even the two will become friends.

If this situation had arisen with men instead of women it would had a much different outcome. A man violated like the woman was when she had the diary stolen would feel this huge need to retaliate, to wage aggression against the violator. Having discovered the perpetrator there would have been immediate retaliation with aggressive psychological attack and possibly even physical violence. There would be no peaceful way to resolve the issue and it would remain unresolved and might even become a factor in a future conflict.

A lot of wars happen because men can’t or won’t resolve the little issues that woman seem so much more capable of dealing with and these escalate into wars. I sometimes wonder if women ruled countries instead of men, if a woman could stop a war by baking the other woman a cake or writing her a nice little card.

As a man I can appreciate the sense that woman seem to possess and the peaceful and inventive way they resolve conflict. In my heart and mind it is even how I think I would like to act, but the reality is that I probably won’t because of my makeup as a man. Aggression is just a part of my makeup as being a man and I can’t separate this from who I am in my inner being.

Men and women are programmed differently because of how we developed in our sexes, but I don’t think we are different in our hearts. If these differences in the sexes can be recognized for what they are, as opposed to labeling them as negative character attributes, then the sometimes-seemly unbridgeable gap between men and women can be closed.

As far as labeling one sex superior to the other, I think the best way is to look at the sexes as different and not get into trying to figure who has the greatest advantage. I am not going to go into the positive aspects of men’s aggression that allows them to go into unknown situations much more readily than woman, but on total men and woman have equal, if different, advantage.

Oh dear, Asmodean,

The reason that feminists are more involved in equal rights is simply that they are the ones who are discriminated against, mainly at work.

In a less conventional sense society discriminates against men too.They earn the higher wages so they usually end up with no option but to go out to work.If women were paid at the same rates and society were ready to accept a man in the role of main carer we would all have more choices , both genders would be liberalised.

Read some Germaine Greer ,she make the point quite clearly that she is not anti-man she is pro-liberalisation.

“Pro-liberalisation”? Does that mean she wants to take all our guns away from us, pay everyone the same wage no matter how little work they do, and jail us for having politically incorrect thoughts?

<ducking and running>

Darn, Tracer, it seems like the changes on hormones should be better than giving some other sex the eye (Doesn’t that have the ring of there being more than 2?) and chocolate.

Maybe thinking (brain) differences start very young and adult hormone additions would be too little too late?

Did the bonobos remind you of teenagers you knew? Notice no url - I thought it was automatic on this new software.

Nice, Iswote, I’ve seen some of those things, too, but wouldn’t have said it as well.

Unfortunately, we are a culture in which many are characterized by their extreme elements. Not every homosexual is a cross-dressing swishy drag queen wither, yet that is the image that many have in their minds because they are the ones the media sensationalizes. (Well, actually they sort of sensationalize themselves really.) Christians get the same sort of thing whenever Pat Rovertson or Jerry Falwell open their mouths.

I can still remember watching in disbelief as a bunch of women marched in support of Lorena Bobbitt yelling slogans about how her husband deserved what he got and so forth. His character notwithstanding, (I have no idea what he did or didn’t do during the course of their relationship other than that there wasn’t any prosecution) can you imagine a group of men marching in support of an abused husband who took a knife and mutilated the breasts and/or genitalia of his wife? Had I any illusions that women were the kinder, gentler, nurturing, morally superior gender, that would have been enough to kick the pedestal out from under. (Not that I believe men are, you know.)

The mainstream of feminism is certainly not well represented by the so-called castration feminists, yet it is the extreme that gets the media attention, and the extreme that is memorable. I’ve read plenty of articles that were thoughtful and reasonable and that’s exactly why they are so forgettable. The images that really make me mad are the ones that stay in my memory. The stereotype only needs a little reinforcing every now and then to undo all the quietly positive things in the public’s mind.

I am somewhat troubled by this statement. So, what if there is an actual, measurable difference between the sexes physiologically that can be shown to influence behavior? I have read before that the corpus collosum is something like 20% larger in females on average. Granted, with new research supporting the idea that the brain is very mutable due to the environment we can’t say for sure how much of this is nature or nurture. If such a discovery was made

I am somewhat troubled by this statement. So, what if there is an actual, measurable difference between the sexes physiologically that can be shown to influence behavior? I have read before that the corpus collosum is something like 20% larger in females on average. Granted, with new research supporting the idea that the brain is very mutable due to the environment we can’t say for sure how much of this is nature or nurture. If there is such a difference, and we certainly can’t rule it out, are you saying that it’s better left alone? Or that we shouldn’t look into apparent differences even if they are societally motivated? I agree that it’s hardly good science to develop a theory and then subjectively bend the evidence to support it, which is what some evolutionary psych seems to do, but the “I don’t think it helps…” part makes me uncomfortable. We can’t predict what value the results of a field of inquiry will be until we actually get those results.

Perhaps we should ask Margaret Thatcher or Golda Meier.

This from a doctor friend of mine who just read the bit about women having higher endurance:

“Of course they do, they have more fat and less muscle, so they have more energy reserves and don’t burn it as quickly. Duh…”

Heh. I wonder if you had a man and a women with exactly the same muscle mass and body fat, would they have the same endurance?

Jois wrote:

It is automatic – unless you don’t put any space between the URL and the word that goes before it. What you wrote was this:

[QUOTE]
Try this for male and female:http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html

… which doesn’t have a space between the “female:” and the “http”.

GRRRR … ONE MORE TIME!
Jois wrote:

It is automatic – unless you don’t put any space between the URL and the word that goes before it. What you wrote was this:

… which doesn’t have a space between the “female:” and the “http”.

Or Janet Reno.

Seriously, as a woman I defend my right to start wars as often and as spuriously as any man. And honestly, I don’t think that any woman would have handled the diary incident the way that movie describes, Iswote. Instead it would go like this:

Diary disapears. Woman 1 gets idea that Woman 2 must of taken it because she’s jealous. Woman 1 tells all her friends, especially ones at the office, about Woman 2’s terrible behavior. She also explains why Woman 2 is jealous–she knows, through “intuition” that Woman 2 hates her because Woman 1 has has a great boyfriend and is prettier. Who wouldn’t hate her for that? Woman 2 is obviously jealous and miserable, you can tell by the way she reads books and dosen’t socialize over lunch. Enough people at the office would take Woman 1 at her word, so that from then on Woman 2 would be blamed for eveything that disappeared. As the stories acumulated even the people that hadn’t believed it at first would becime convinced–so many missing things! Woman 2 would never get a chance to defend herself because no one would be rude or unladylike enough to confront her with the allegations. Eventually, Woman 1 finds her diary in her own filing cabnient. She tells her friends, but by this time Woman 2 is solidly labeled as the office thief and since there has been so much “evidence” since that incident nothing changes. Eventually, Woman 2 finds another job because for some reason they won’t promote her.

The “madonna” stereotype is as limiting as the “whore”. Here in my house we have a deal–every time I try and claim moral authority my SO gets to claim intellectual authority. Let me tell you–I am not about to give that up.

You know, I saw that movie Clockwatchers, and I knew there was something wrong with that sequence. I think you nailed it on the head with your description, MandaJo. However, the question is: would a man react differently? Because from what I’ve seen, men gossip no more nor less than women. Of course on the other hand, the women may not have gossipped in front of me as much as they would amongst their own.

IMO, a good clean fight can be a lot more helpful than the whispering and back-stabbing that can result as an alternative.

Rule number 1: You do not talk about Fight Club.

Rule number 2: You do nottalk … about Fight Club!