“I think women probably have a worse time on balance”
And, what balance would that be?
Western women have equality in all respects of the law, they are usually better off in a divorce, they are increasingly taking the more powerful jobs ( eg lawyers, Drs, politicians ) that allow them to shape society the way they want, they have invaded traditional men’s occupations such as the military, they are positively discriminated for eg the push to have more women in board rooms, regardless of whther they are qualified to be there.
Western women need to go to rural villages in remote poor third world countries to see just how far they have come from real dicrimination and powerlessness.
I worked in a female dominated occupation for most of my working life, and it never occured to me that I was better off than the women, as I wasn’t.
As almost every male on the planet was mainly raise by his mother, it has long puzzled me as to why the situation you describe exists.
If women raised their sons to respect women, surely there would be no cases of “atrocious attitudes about women”.
It is beyond me, though I’d really like to know why.
So…men are allowed to do just about anything, except complain. Complaining isn’t manly.
More seriously, I don’t agree with your wider point. Nobody would raise an eyebrow if a woman liked all the pursuits you listed, and obviously no-one would consider her a bit ghey for liking things like ballet.
A thread on which gender is more free in our society to express themselves would be an interesting one. I would probably say women, but I’d be interested to read other perspectives.
If it implies that hiring policies should be unfair, to make up for the sexism of the past that I had nothing to do with, then I’ll pass.
Like I said, I don’t expect positive discrimination because of my race and likewise I don’t want to be discriminated against because of my gender.
No complaining is counter productive as it is just hot air and that goes for men and women. Action is what counts.
Some women are called butch if they play sport, so to your point that there are gender differences is right. Yes I would say that women are freer to express themselves, you just have to look at the art world to see this,
Women and men in general are different, that does not mean that they both shouldn’t have equal rights to pursue the same opportunities.
That’s a different point from the one I was making.
I was just making the observation that this thread, like others on similar topics, has a certain level of contempt for the idea of men complaining about men’s issues. Words such as whiney, whingeing and snivelling seem to often get an outing in these cases.
OTOH what the most effective strategy for change in the wider world is, and whether the MRM should just complain or should take part in political lobbying, activism, demonstrations etc is a different issue.
It shouldn’t be beyond anyone to see how male privilege and a related sense of entitlement support such attitudes. Men also learn how to behave and set expectations from peers, popular culture, political and religious figures, fathers, etc. No man, even born to a single mother, is raised in a bubble.
The conviction rate for rape cases is actually higher than for crimes-against-the-person as a whole. The difference is that, due to feminist lobbying, the UK government publishes conviction rates for all other crimes, but prefers attrition rates for rape. Conviction rates is the proportion of cases that get to court which end in a conviction. The attrition rate is the proportion of all cases reported to the authorities which end in a conviction. The 7% figure is therefore intentionally misleading, and meant to make people think rape cases are unusually unlikely to end in a conviction. This is not the case.
Feminists would have a lot more friends in the MRM if they didn’t insist on blaming everything on this “patriarchy” conspiracy theory. I mean, would it kill you to use something neutral, like “prevailing gender norms”?
“Prevailing gender norms are bad for everyone” - true.
“Patriarchy is bad for men too” - delusional and offensive.
Blaming the disadvantages under which men labour on a system supposedly designed by men specifically to keep men in a position of privelege is contradictory, and when used to explain men’s disadvantages seems nothing short of victim-blaming. It’s just a way for feminists to say “men might have problems, but they’ll be magically solved by helping us defeat ‘patriarchy’, not by actually lobbying on their own behalf to remedy their problems”. So things like women getting preferential treatment over custody, which was lobbied for by feminist activists, get claimed by feminists as something only they can solve. Given that women are effectively free of the prevailing gender norms, while men are still pressured to be socially aggressive, and to provide financially and suchlike, things enforced by women, we live in a matriarchy, not a patriarchy.
Also, I prefer to think of my hair as “like a Spartan”, or “like Samson in the Bible”, rather than “like a girl”.
What you’re saying here is that the same theory, packaged with a different name, is fine? Because the “prevailing gender norm” is widely favoring of males, that’s why it’s called patriarchy, not “prevailing gender norms”.
Unsurprisingly, you’re spectacularly misunderstanding a lot of things.
The default setting of the courts to give custody to women doesn’t really operate the way it did 20 years ago. Perpetuating this idea that women get “preferential” treatment over custody is because of the longstanding and sexist belief that a woman’s place is in the home, raising children. And that men were not suited for such work, because it was women’s work. That isn’t beneficial to women in any way.
Further, the whole idea of men being expected to be socially aggressive and financially secure is something perpetuated and reinforced by men, as in “man up!” “be a man!” “Stop being such a bitch!” which are terms thrown around by men, not women. Throwing in “things enforced by women” does not actually make that true. And matriarchy. Oh god, you’re hilarious.
Women may not use those terms because those are socially aggressive terms said by men trying to sound like men.
But the sentiment is common in both genders. You don’t have to look long to see examples of both genders being excessively rude towards men perceived as wet, or lacking drive. Society expects men to either be successful and “alpha”, or to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
It’s not at all the same theory. “prevailing gender norm” doesn’t contain the assumption that such things normally benefit men. “patriarchy” does.
Except, you know, those unfair custody decisions. That benefits women. Greater likelihood of getting alimony too, benefits women. Rather, the assumption seems to me to be that men aren’t as good at looking after children, and aren’t as important to those children. That is certainly more in line with the outcome.
I’ve heard even self-proclaimed feminist women utter the offensive statement “man up”. But of course, those things are words and hence can be said by persons of either sex. But women also reinforce these things by actions: by refusing to be the aggressor in a romantic context and putting the burden on the man; by expecting to be paid for; by being more likely to be violent with intimate partners; by lobbying for the legal right to maternal leave that fathers don’t have, and then staying at home to look after children and be provided for while men don’t have that option.
For example the “lulu” app that’s been getting a lot of press recently, which allows women to anonymously gossip about their male aquaintances on facebook, two of the five categories the men are rated on are wealth and ambition.
Matriarchy, a system by and for mothers (see article linked in previous post), or gynarchy, a which would be on behalf of women in general and not just mothers.
At present baby boys are left to cry longer before being responded to by their parents, mostly their mothers, which I would expect to be due to these “patriarchal” ideas that boys should be tough. Boys are then also more likely, vastly more likely, to be subject to corporal punishment in schools and to neglect and physical abuse at home than are girls, the one from mostly female teachers, the other mostly from mothers. Boys receive more negative attention in general in school, and due to reordering designed to benefit girls also underachieve in primary and secondary education. There was a time when the numbers were the other way around, and feminist agitation changed that, but now women do much better in school, are much more likely to go to university, then less likely to drop out, are the majority of those with a university education, are the majority of new entrants into the legal and medical professions, are less likely to be unemployed and so on, where’s the attention? The lack of women in STEM fields and the so-called pay gap, resulting from women being able to choose to work less without the pressures placed on men. Meanwhile feminists complain about the glass ceiling while 90% of in-work injuries and fatalities are men, and about supposed discrimination against women when men are actually discriminated against when applying for jobs, especially in female-dominated professions (of which there are still plenty, unlike male-dominated professions). Men are far more likely to be the victim of every category of violent crime, even rape due to America’s prison system, and yet “violence against women” gets an Act, and seven times as many google hits, and here there are 4,000 beds in refuges reserved for women, but only 33 for men. Women are less likely to be incarcerated, are less likely to be imprisoned when committing the same offence and if they do get an average sentence much lower, and the government has responded by suggesting prison “doesn’t work for women” and not imprisoning women at all might be a better idea. Men are at least 80% of the homeless, yet there are such things as women-only homeless shelters. Men are more likely to die of cancer, and of almost every kind of cancer, but female-only cancers get a disproportionate amount of funding. Men are expected to ask women out, to pay for dates (sometimes under the insultingly thin pretence that whoever asks should pay), to propose marriage, to provide and generally enable whatever lifestyle the woman prefers. Women then initiate 90% of divorces, and get the large majority of favourable settlements on matters of custody and maintenance. And, of course, women live significantly longer and, in most of the western world, can retire several years earlier.
These are the concrete results of prevailing gender norms, and they’re not the result of a system of norms “widely favoring of males”. Rather, it’s a system of “male disposibility”. Men are seen and treated by society as mere objects to be used for the convenience of women, and the concerns of men are therefore of little interest to maintainers of the gender status quo, like yourself. Rather, the nonsence feminists complain about gets the attention, the concrete issues men face don’t.
These exist, certainly. There are also custody decisions that are fair. Just looking at how many of which parent gets custody doesn’t say which ones are fair and which aren’t. So I hope that people are basing their complaints on something other than a statitistical prevalence.
Yes, unfair custody decisions happen, but the default setting now is “joint custody”. With regards to the whole idea that a woman’s place is in the home looking after children, who do you think perpetuated that? The outcome is the same, men are discouraged from taking care of children. If you look at actual historical viewpoints regarding child rearing, it is most certainly that women were expected to do that, not that men simply sucked at it.
People ARE lobbying for paternal leave as well. Because it benefits women to share the child rearing responsibilities with men! God you’re thick.
Good thing women aren’t objectified by their male friends ever.
Yes, this is an example of how patriarchy is bad for men.
Nobody is saying it’s just bad for women.
You know, I feel like I’ve spectacularly wasted my time. I can see now that you aren’t actually interested in changing any of the issues you mention, you’re just tacking on the words “BY WOMEN” at the end and pretending like there is a conspiracy to keep men down, which historically has happened to work in exactly the opposite way. What you’re refusing to accept is the idea that gender roles placed on women have a direct corollary effect on men. You’re instead starting from the corrolary effect they have on men and pretending as if that was the starting point.
The reason feminists and MRAs can’t get along is that you’ve tried to reshape history in such a way to prove your point that it’s unrecognizable. You’re completely ignoring that symbiotic relationship between society’s historical devaluing of women and the negative impact that has on men. Custody rulings presume the sexist idea that a woman’s role is in the home, taking care of children. Men fight wars because women are “too weak”. Men have to go out and earn money because women don’t belong in the workplace, it is a man’s environment, she has a brain scientifically smaller and incapable of keeping up. Women aren’t scaling the fences to get back into the role of living the life of luxury at home, sipping Mai Tais while the kids run around. They were told that was the only role they could ever have in life by natural law.
Gender norms harm both genders at the same time, and are perpetuated by both genders, but it is absolutely insane to read history through the lens of “it’s all the fault of women”. Women have historically, and continue to be, treated as second class citizens who are dumber, weaker, and less valuable to society except as a vessel for sex and keeping up with the house chores. The negative impact that those gender expectations have on men include the requirement to be strong, aggressive, and financially secure so as to distance themselves from being like women, which is an undesirable thing to be.
The reason it’s called “patriarchy” is not because men win 100% of the time. It’s not because there are not any negative stereotypes that exist for men, or any unreasonable things that men are expected to do or live up to. It’s because the system has evolved in such a way where men wield a huge supermajority of the power that women have had to fight against in order to have an equal shot. Women are not sending men to war, historically, men are. Women are not calling men up for the draft, men are. Women are not historically in the positions of power to demand that men work 60 hour work weeks and stay away from their families, men have been. You’ll find a ton of women fighting on behalf of paternal leave, though.
At the end of the day, I don’t think feminists are what you think they are. But when you somehow cull up the 1965 example of kids getting beaten in schools (which doesn’t happen anymore) and somehow at the same time fail to see how in 1965 a school teacher was the height of professional career options a woman had, and fail to see that as patriarchy, I don’t think I can help you see it.
OK, I’ll admit I haven’t read the whole thread because I’m worried it will lower my IQ and hurt my blood pressure, so I’m just going to put out my $.02 for whatever it’s worth.
First off everyone, men and women, deserves to have their human and civil rights respected and defended. That should go without saying. I’m a man, and I definitly want all the rights I’m entitled to, and I’d hope no one here would disagree.
But, when you look at people who were being denied rights, denied them as a group, they were always being denied their rights by some other group who had more power then they did. Jews in Germany, Blacks in the US or South Africa, Gays pretty much everywhere.
So this leads to the question: If men, as a group, are having their rights violated on a systemic basis, who is doing the violating? I hope it’s non-controversial that Men have had the near totality of political, economic, and religious power in the world. (And by world I mean western world, since that’s the only world people seem to be discussing. I hope nobody thinks men are being oppressed in Saudi Arabia.) So how is it that men are being oppressed.
If men get the short end of the stick with regard to alimony child support and custody, who was it that decided that women were “naturally” better mother’s and were so incapable of supporting themselves that it is the man’s duty to support them after a divorce?
If men are more likely to die violently, who was it who put forth the idea that men must defend slights to their honor with physical violence lest they seem unmanly?
It’s possible to imagine a men’s rights movement that would actually be a positive force for men and for humanity. That movement would be a natural companion to women’s rights, and would also challenge deeply entrenched toxic ideas about masculinity femininity and related issues.
But that’s not the men’s rights movement we see on the internet today, is it? To put it as calmly as possible, the internet MRM seems to think that rights are a finite resource, and that if women gain rights, then men must lose some.
To put it less mildly, internet men’s rights activists seem to be drawn from a pool of crackpots and misogynists, PUA types and the sexually frustrated. The shrillest 60s radical feminist would seem like a moderate voice in the MRM as it exists today on the internet. It’s fucking embarrassing.
