So the Men’s Rights movement is a conservative effort? How so?
Are you going to be on that cross much longer? Mistress Masha would like to use it for her 4:30 appointment.
You would have a lot more discussion if your opinions about the “issues” weren’t so obviously stupid. No one is obliged to pretend that your nonsense makes any sense just for the sake of discussion.
The beauty of American democracy is that no one has to explain why they have a particular political position.
In any case my presence on this thread seems to be counterproductive.
They do if they want anybody to take their position seriously. But if you’re going to take your ball and go home, stop playing the martyr and threatening to leave and just go. It’s the manly thing to do.
The beauty of conversation is in actually having one. That means generally telling people where you are coming from.
Of course, you can just pout and leave the thread. I’m not stopping you. I would think someone who really wanted to be understood would take the time to talk. Do you want me to understand where you’re coming from?
I believe this to be the opposite of correct.
Yeah, everybody knows liberals don’t have morals.
Well, I did some digging and couldn’t find any evidence that the MRM is even remotely a conservative effort. MRAs decry the traditional roles and male archetypes such as heroism, chivalry, and the “white knight” and claim that such efforts infantilize and promote the exaltation of women, which sounds like exactly the opposite of any conservative effort I’m familiar with. Could someone point me in the direction of any conservative religious, political, or social organization which encourages men to eschew these traditional roles in favor of whining, reluctant, vindictive men who would turn a blind eye to violence or aggression towards weaker persons?
Having said that, a discussion about the drawbacks of the aforementioned traditional roles could be enlightening if started by someone with some success with passive male roles and who isn’t defensive embittered by his experience.
Or lack thereof.
Men that I have seen that play the passive “poor husband” card tend to be unhappier and have broken estranged marriages. Even when mine broke up I didn’t play the victim, I accepted my personal responsibility and got on with life and making the best of it.
I just don’t see how men are really disadvantaged, unless of course you mean poor white male and then you might have an argument but only after acknowledging that poor white females have it tough as well.
I wanted to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, but he seems pretty ensnared in his martyr role so it’s hard to trust his sincerity at this point. Other than disparity with regards to custody and child support issues, I’d also have to see real life examples of disadvantages, too.
I have heard some noise on this board about men who are uncomfortable with the role of the sports loving, beer-swilling, arm-wrestling hero they feel is unfairly expected of them, and that’s understandable. What I don’t get is how exactly this hampers them in the workplace or in the pursuit of relationships. If you aren’t interested in sports talk, then why bother pretending with coworkers who are? If you aren’t interested in competing against the loud guys at the bar pool table for the attentions of the hot girl, then seek companionship in less aggressive environs. I’m not sure exactly how more sensitive men would like to be received or what their expectations are. Some dialogue about that would be interesting, and I’m hoping that someone else will pick this up and explain.
I think the domestic violence and divorce issues are the most serious and have the potential to attract the most men to the cause of men’s rights. Various men I’ve met both online and in person don’t want to get married because they know the divorce proceedings can be very stacked against them if the woman is malicious and knows what strings to pull. Men can end up paying large sums and not see their kids as much as they’d want.
I think police and prosecutors are becoming more fair about pursuing DV case and pursuing both genders. So that is a move in the right direction.
For what it’s worth, I found this article about a 12 year old boy with long hair (plus some pink Manic Panic at the ends) really challenging to my preconceptions. I realized for all my supposedly evolved attitudes about sexism, homosexuality, and trans-friendliness, the simple idea of letting your son wear his hear “like a girl” and wear pink made me feel uncomfortable. It also underlines how brutal socialization is for boys in our culture. With all our historical disadvantages, at least nowadays women have a little more freedom to be ourselves. Males in our culture face more rigid, invariable expectations to create a facade of manliness and never, ever, ever let a crack show. No crying. No pink. No ballet. Sports, violent entertainment, trucks, and later, sexual aggressiveness are required of boys who may have absolutely no interest in being like that. It’s a very narrow role.
Again, this is symptomatic of atrocious attitudes about women as well, but I think it is a good example of how patriarchal beliefs hurt males as well as females.
I think this is the mistake people make – that to campaign for men’s rights must mean you think that men have it worse overall than women. That’s not the case.
I think women probably have a worse time on balance (though in the developed world I don’t think it’s as clear-cut as some would have it).
However, I do feel that there are issues where men are probably getting a raw deal.
For example several European countries (France, Spain, Italy, Belgium) now have gender quotas for many job roles, and my country, the UK, is considering them. I feel that all forms of positive discrimination are wrong (and I’m saying that as a black man).
I love my sports and play AFL and basketball on a regular basis and love my 4wd and camping and grunting at monster truck shows but I also love my ballet, opera and art. That is the beauty of being a man today, we can be who we want to be and yes there are people who will think we are a bit ghey for liking the arts but really these are peoples opinions I take no stock in.
Playing the victim and crying poor me is not going to change anything, getting angry and pissy is also not going to solve anything.
The issue of positive discrimination is a vexed one and to be honest one I still struggle with, having said that I have seen my company majorly benefit from having more woman in senior roles. It has allowed me to explore my work life balance for example asking for carer’s leave or to take an afternoon off for parent teacher interviews is a hell of a lot easier! Also we are being encourage to work from home so we are more able to be there for our kids/wife etc.
If as a man you are feeling hard done by then I would strongly recommend you read the book “manhood” by Steve Biddulph. This is great book for us confused men who were born into the feminist movement of the 1970’s.
Just a note to say that I am involved in what some might call mens’ issues, I promote and support the awareness of prostate cancer and also am a big supporter of ensuring more funds are spent on mens’ mental health. I am very active in these arenas in the areas of awareness and raising much needed money.
Yes suicide by men is a horrible blight and some men do not cope with divorce etc at all but to blame someone is silly. We need resources aimed at improving outcomes for men, with this I agree with the MRAs out there.
So in some respects I would be prime fodder for the MRA but alas if men continue to play the martyr card they will continue to be ignored by the majority of men today. Remember it has been a man’s world for a long time so blaming feminists as the cause of all of modern mans problems is wrong.
Divorces are also pretty hellish for women with malicious exes. if you are on the other side of a vindictive person, it’s going to suck no matter what.
Quoted for truth.
Yep nasty is not sexist.
Perhaps that is because in the cases that failed it was untrue for a vast number of reasons. Just because a woman cries rape, doesn’t make it so.
There is indeed a need for a men’s support organisation, but I have faint hopes of one being successful.
BTW, I found this little gem on the internet “While misogyny or women hating is politically incorrect, misandry or men hating is socially acceptable”.
Seems pretty true to me.