Metacom, you're an idiot. Plain and simple.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Slacker

What I object to is your untenable position that because the kid was suicidal rather than nuts the police should react to him differently.

Well, today’s your lucky day, since that’s not my position and I’ve stated as much several times in this thread.

Your tone in almost every post in this thread makes me think it would save you a lot of time if you just put “LOOK AT ME! I’M COMPASSIONATE!” in your sig and just post “see below” every time.

Was I not clear before? Fuck you, dumbass! Your snarky bullshit is unwelcome and bespeaks a contemptible attitude toward life.

Troy, how much responsibility are you willing to give fifteen-year-olds? What possible negative consequences will there be for pitying this kid? Do you think that other fifteen-year-olds will read this and think, “Gosh, you know, now that I know people won’t condemn me on the Internet, but instead will pity me, I’m gonna go point guns at cops to get myself killed!”

Fifteen year olds are NOT responsible. This is not a new idea. When you combine mental illness and adolescence, tragedy sometimes strikes.

Daniel

[Slacker]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Was I not clear before? Fuck you, dumbass! Your snarky bullshit is unwelcome and bespeaks a contemptible attitude toward life.

Who are you? The baby Jesus? That I find you sanctimonious bespeaks contempt toward life in general?

[Miller]

@Slacker

What I object to is your untenable position that because the kid was suicidal rather than nuts the police should react to him differently.

I think this is where the confusion is happening in this thread: I’m pretty sure LHoD is coming from the position that, since the kid was clearly suicidal, then pretty much by definition he was also nuts. Short of a terminal, incurable disease, suicide is pretty much never a rational decision, which casts some heavy doubts on the kids ability to make rational decisions about how to kill himself. If he was capable of understanding how his actions would devastate the lives of those around him, he probably wouldn’t have been trying to kill himself in the first place. That he chose such a spectacularly destructive way to off himself bespeaks a greater disconnect from reality than your average suicidal person, and therefore a correspondingly lesser culpability for his actions.

[Martin_Hyde]

@Miller

I think this is where the confusion is happening in this thread: I’m pretty sure LHoD is coming from the position that, since the kid was clearly suicidal, then pretty much by definition he was also nuts. Short of a terminal, incurable disease, suicide is pretty much never a rational decision, which casts some heavy doubts on the kids ability to make rational decisions about how to kill himself. If he was capable of understanding how his actions would devastate the lives of those around him, he probably wouldn’t have been trying to kill himself in the first place. That he chose such a spectacularly destructive way to off himself bespeaks a greater disconnect from reality than your average suicidal person, and therefore a correspondingly lesser culpability for his actions.

Yes, but I reject the notion that only the mentally ill can be suicidal. Do I think suicide is something that happens when someone is of sound mind? Almost never (sometimes, though.)

In this case do I think Chris Penley was necessarily of sound mind? No, I do not. However I also haven’t seen evidence he was mentally ill. Just because he had been upset about being bullied and ultimately took actions to assure his own death does not mean he was mentally ill. He may have had a mental illness, he may have had serious depression.

Or, he may have just been very distraught and it may have been transitory in nature.

In any case I’m not sure why we should simply assume he was mentally ill just because he wanted to kill himself.

[Xploder]

Think of it as evolution in action. The kid’s dead so he won’t ever be able to pass on his dumbass gene to future generations.

The cop did the right thing as pretty much everyone has said in this thread with the exception of the cowardly Metacom. Do I have any sympathy for the kid? No, but I do have a small bit for his family and a LOT of sympathy for the cop that had to shoot him.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Martin Hyde

In this case do I think Chris Penley was necessarily of sound mind? No, I do not. However I also haven’t seen evidence he was mentally ill.

I have. He convinced the cops to shoot him. That, by itself, is very strong evidence of mental illness.

I’m done replying to Slacker. I’ve not really noticed him(?) before, but now I’m getting the impression that he’s the sort of dishonest, snivelling idiot that can make my time online less pleasant if I pay him any attention.

Daniel

[drachillix]

@Martin Hyde

Actually it can conver your balls, depending on the type of suit you’re wearing. IME though that is not something that SWAT would be wearing.

Gotta toss in my .02 worth

Police officers have been killed by shots that did not penetrate their vests, a bullet hitting a vest makes it far less likely to penetrate and do far more damage but its still akin to someone taking a solid whack at you with a hammer. Taking a shot to the genitals even with a kevlar covering could still rupture testicles and cause major soft tissue injuries that could render you unable to function.

[Guinastasia]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

I have. He convinced the cops to shoot him. That, by itself, is very strong evidence of mental illness.

I’m done replying to Slacker. I’ve not really noticed him(?) before, but now I’m getting the impression that he’s the sort of dishonest, snivelling idiot that can make my time online less pleasant if I pay him any attention.

Daniel

You can be mentally ill and still be responsible for your actions. I’m sorry the kid was in pain and I’m sorry he was killed…BUT:

I’m even more sorry for those around him that had to live through this horror. The man who shot him. The students whose lives were threatened. The entire town.

He may have been mentally ill, but his actions were deplorable.

[PunditLisa]

@Guinastasia

You can be mentally ill and still be responsible for your actions. I’m sorry the kid was in pain and I’m sorry he was killed…BUT:

I’m even more sorry for those around him that had to live through this horror. The man who shot him. The students whose lives were threatened. The entire town.

He may have been mentally ill, but his actions were deplorable.

Amen. And I’ll add that his parents should be taken out and horse whipped for having the audacity to criticize the cops for how they handled the situation. I realize I’m old fashioned, but my husband and I believe that any time the SWAT team is called because of our kid, we pretty much fucked up as parents.

[Thalion]

Well, I’ve been out all day and just got to review my very first Pit thread.

I consider it a total success. It appears that pretty much everyone agrees that Metacom is an idiot, and Metacom himself agrees that he’s a pussy.

OK, that’s a bit harsh (not to mention, too easy). I can’t blame Metacom for running. When your position cannot be defended, why even try?

I would like to thank everyone who expressed support for law enforcement (and Monty, your comment especially moved me. Thank you).
I still think that the deputy was 100% justified in taking that shot. What Metacom recommends is beyond stupid.

Metacom says that this is all a matter of defining “reasonable risk”. He’s right. What I can’t understand is why he thinks he should be the one to make that determination, and why he thinks anyone in the fucking world would agree with him.

Up to a point, department policy will define what risks an officer is expected to face. For instance, my department has a policy that no officer will go to a domestic violence call alone, because they are so dangerous. Other departments don’t consider it unreasonable for an officer to handle such a call solo, so one of their officers can’t refuse to go to a call alone.

But after that point, only the officer in the situation can decide what risks he is willing to take. Another officer in the exact same situation as that deputy may have hesitated that extra moment that Metacom expects. But only the guy with his life on the line, facing the situation he’s in and having what facts are available to him at that moment, can make that decision. Not some fucking idiot sitting at his computer the next day!

The bullshit about the father telling the police that the kid didn’t have a real gun is completely irrelevant. If you had asked the parents of the killers at Columbine if their kids had access to guns and bombs, what do you think the answer would have been?

I do wish that they could have done something else (like use some less-lethal option). And you know what? I’m willing to bet that the deputy who shot that kid is wishing the same thing tonight. I’m sure that he is going over this incident again and again in his mind, trying to see some other way this could have ended.
Fear Itself raises a valid point. Just because someone points a gun at me, it isn’t automatic that he or she will be shot (but it is pretty damned likely!). If this were a small child, the reaction may well have been different. Personally, faced with the same situation but with a seven-year-old holding the gun, I probably would not have fired. Other cops would, and would be justified in doing so. If I couldn’t get behind cover and nothing else was available, I might dive on the kid and risk getting shot. But again, only the officer in that situation can make that decision.

Left Hand of Dorkness, I agree with you, too. I am very sad to think that life drove this kid to such a desperate act. I grieve for him, his parents, and for the deputy who was forced to kill him. He was not stupid. For whatever reason, he wanted to die, and he choose a method that was almost guaranteed to work. It would probably only fail if Metacom were the cop he faced, and we know that ain’t gonna happen!

[Lissa]

@Mellivora capensis

Just to add my two cents to the “shoot in the shoulder” philosophy. It’s good in theory and in a controlled environment such as a shooting range. No adrenalin, stationary target, ear protection, all the time in the world.

But it’s extremely difficult to put into practice in a real time situation, no matter how well trained you are. It seems unclear at this point whether the guy emerged or was visible prior to the shooting, but I’ll say this much. If a guy rushes out from behind a closed door at short range and points a gun at me, I’m going for the instinctive double tap at centre mass. I simply don’t have the luxury of time to take a Weaver stance, aim carefully and squeeze.

Although my husband’s training has moved away form the tap-tap at center mass, I can totally understand what you are saying (They train airate the target now). He told me of a time when a group of sheriff’s were approaching a subjects house. He opened fire from the door, at the cops right in front of the door. He hit one man, the other 5 deputies were firing and retreating (one was pulling the downed man), not a single one of them hit the subject 10 feet away. These were experienced, seasoned officers. Many of them emptied clips.

Simply put, a gunfight is not as easy as everyone makes it sound. Adrenaline, recoil, movement, target behavior and simple human error account for a lot.

In another story (Where hubby does blame the cops for ineptitude somewhat), he was serving a high risk warrant with the Adult Parole Authority on a suspected drug lab. The local cops insisted on their tactical team being present. It consisted of a lot of rookies and some real “gung-ho” guys. My husband and some of the other APA, DRC and OSP agents tried to get them to relax, but they were real intense. They entered the house and when a pit-bull walked out of the kitchen, they unloaded entire clips of UMP’s at the dog. All 3 of the primary entrance team missed the dog, with an automatic weapon, down a hallway, within 5-10 feet.

My husband’s partner walked in as the three lead tac team members took positions to reload, walked up to the dog (who was wagging it’s tail) and told him to sit. It would be funny, according to hubby, if the free-use of automatic weapons was not so dangerous. No one was hurt, thank god.

In his experience, and I am sure most cops would agree, the use of deadly force is done with great care and concern. Even the young men who unloaded their weapons at the dog, got a real solid wake up call, AND when confronted with this by their peers, they learned a valuable lesson. I have never been in the situation, but my husband says, plainly, that discharging a weapon in the pursuit of deadly force has never been taken lightly by any officer he has known.

[Nic2004]

LHoD I believe I understand your position. I believed early on that it is tragic for a child, and yes, a boy of 15 is but a child, has had a life that has led him to thinking this was an acceptable course of action. This is far too young to be so troubled. I am sorry for his family. I can’t imagine the vacuum in their lives tonight. The unreal aspect of it all and the loss. I am sorry for the Sheriffs Deputy that is home tonight replaying that last moment in his mind over and over. I feel for the children in lock down in the nearby classroom that heard the shot and the frantic voices of the EMT’s and Police.
I can feel this way and also feel that the officer was given no choice and his actions were the only ones he could have made. There was no way for this story to have a happy ending once certain events were put into motion. If I have misunderstood you, I apologize.

[Martin_Hyde]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

I have. He convinced the cops to shoot him. That, by itself, is very strong evidence of mental illness.

I’m done replying to Slacker. I’ve not really noticed him(?) before, but now I’m getting the impression that he’s the sort of dishonest, snivelling idiot that can make my time online less pleasant if I pay him any attention.

Daniel

That’s still not enough to say he was mentally ill, I don’t know either way, and none of us probably will since a diagnosis like that cannot be made by anyone who doesn’t have direct experience with the boy AND also the expertise to make such a diagnosis.

Some criminals go out in a hail of gunfire in a firefight with the police, even if they know they couldn’t possible shoot their way out, simply to avoid prosecution and incarceration for their crimes.

Obviously Chris Penley wasn’t anything like that but there are most definitely cases where someone basically commits suicide via means of a police officer without being mentally ill.

And of course there’s a good number of people who commit suicide who aren’t mentally ill. I read about a little league coach that was brought up on charges of raping one of his players. When the police came to arrest him he shot himself to avoid arrest. Later, it was revealed that the charges were fabricated and he’d done nothing wrong.

Situations can come about that could cause many otherwise mentally healthy persons to commit suicide.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Metacom

I simply think that police should be willing to assume much more risk in situations such as this then you do. I think that, overall, it would result in far fewer deaths, although more police officers would likely die.

…

I don’t think police should allow themselves to be shot at in general–for example, if some random man on the street pulls a gun and aims it at them, I think they’d be justified in shooting him. But this case wasn’t a random man. The police (collectively) had been told that the gun wasn’t real, and it was obviously a suicide by cop. I think this warrants the police giving the kid the benefit of the doubt in this set of circumstances.

Obviously, the officer’s adrenaline was pumping and it was a very tense situation, and it would have taken a great deal of courage to not shoot the kid. I don’t know what I would have done in such a situation–probably would have shot, given that that’s what I would have been trained to do. And I think that’s a problem with the culture of law enforcement in this country. It’s too cowboy (come to think of it, that might be a problem with the culture of this country in general).

I have to go to work, and I’m going to pussy out of this pit thread too, but of all the times I’ve been insulted on the Dope this pitting will bother me the least. I value that kids life just as much as the officers; you can call me an idiot and tell me I’m full of shit for my opinion about this all you want, but I stand by what I’ve said and I’m not ashamed of my beliefs.

Ordinarily I stay out of pit threads. I’ve never started one, except for the If you want this sale, why are you pissing me off… thread,and that began in IMHO anyway. That said…

Metacom, you are a ungrateful, cowardly, microphallic, coprophagic, minicephalic, bonehead. Calling you a jackass is an insult to donkeys. Calling you a moron is an insult of braindead vegetables. You’re so full of shit you can’t possibly have an asshole.

[Excalibre]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

I have. He convinced the cops to shoot him. That, by itself, is very strong evidence of mental illness.

I’m done replying to Slacker. I’ve not really noticed him(?) before, but now I’m getting the impression that he’s the sort of dishonest, snivelling idiot that can make my time online less pleasant if I pay him any attention.

Daniel

I would say that’s a fair assessment. It appears to be the case that he doesn’t disagree with anything you say, but he’s mad at you for having compassion for the kid.

Yeah, that’s what’s wrong with the world today. Too damn much compassion for our fellow humans! Let’s get rid of it, starting with Leftie here.

@Guinastasia

You can be mentally ill and still be responsible for your actions. I’m sorry the kid was in pain and I’m sorry he was killed…BUT:

I’m even more sorry for those around him that had to live through this horror. The man who shot him. The students whose lives were threatened. The entire town.

He may have been mentally ill, but his actions were deplorable.

No one’s trying to absolve the kid of responsibility. Can’t we agree that the situation is tragic all around without high-handedly deciding who’s more or less deserving of sympathy? Compassion is not a limited resource.

[Thalion]

@Fabulous Creature

Metacom, you are a ungrateful, cowardly, microphallic, coprophagic, minicephalic, bonehead. Calling you a jackass is an insult to donkeys. Calling you a moron is an insult of braindead vegetables. You’re so full of shit you can’t possibly have an asshole.

Damn! I was going to apologize to the board for the lack of insults in my pitting, but you’ve taken care of that for me.

Fabulous Creature, the next time I start a Pit thread, I want you to ghost write for me!

Nicely done.

[Ogre]

I’ve never had tactical training, but for the record, when I was 15, I won a pistol target competition. Just because he was depressed and 15 does not mean he was harmless. And anyone who thinks they would stand there and let the kid have a free shot at them with what appeared to be a 9mm, thereby risking the kids he was trying to protect, and possibly risk his ability to respond effectively, is unrealistic. To say the least.

[Rick]

Thalion besides your wife, and the taxpayers, all of us dopers also want you home safe.
Your OP is 100% right on. To borrow a line from the other thread if you point a gun at gun a cop, you will die on natural causes. Naturally the cop will shoot you. If this kid did not know this then it was a mercy killing. He would be too stupid to live.
Do I feel bad a 15 year old is dead? Sure, but I feel worse for the officer that had to shoot him and will be replaying that scene in his head for maybe the rest of his life. A week from now the kid will be in the ground as worm food. The cop will still be playing the entire incident over in his head, trying to figure out if there was another way. He may turn to drink, or have his marriage break up over this. I hope that he gets the counseling that he needs, and he can put his demons to rest.
What that kid did was stupid. Not dumb, but stupid. Not just run of the mill sorta stupid standard teenager stupid. No this was world class, academy award winning with an extra scoop of ice cream stupid. Furthermore the kid didn’t even have the stones to do it himself. At least if he did himself, I could respect him. Suicide by cop is the chicken shit, no balls, loser way out.

One last note to Thalion. You and your fellow officers often deal all day long with one not nice person after another. Each and every one of these individuals wishes you harm. When you have a day like this, please remember that these people are a small minority of the public at large. Most of us not only don’t wish you harm, but wish you well. Stay safe, and please don’t let the other guy get a free shot off.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Ogre

I’ve never had tactical training, but for the record, when I was 15, I won a pistol target competition. Just because he was depressed and 15 does not mean he was harmless.

Others have summarized my position accurately (thanks, Nic2004 and Excalibre), but to re-emphasize, I am not claiming he was harmless, nor that the police acted incorrectly in the situation.

Guin, I can even agree that his actions were deplorable. Saying that his actions were deplorable, however, is a far cry from feeling no sympathy for him.

Daniel

[Fear_Itself]

@Rick

Suicide by cop is the chicken shit, no balls, loser way out.

The irony is that, many kids who are suicidal feel exactly like that; they believe they are nothing more than chicken shit, have no balls, and are complete losers. That’s why they want to die. The more you send the message that suicide by cop is appropriate for them, the more they will follow your directions. Your comments amount to a self fulfilling prophecy, condemning an endless cycle of kids and cops to misery.