Methinks The Marine Commandant Doth Protest Too Much.

The BBQ Pit
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From This article

(bolding mine)

Anyone following the emerging details of both incidents are going to be extremely hard-pressed to believe that Marines absolutely know right from wrong.

Or, more to the point, is the version of right and wrong that many parents teach their children not at all the version of right and wrong that is taught at Paris Island ?

This person is the Marine Commandant- the head of the United States Marine Corps. He states that Marines know right from wrong.

We are all aware that the investigations are in the early stages of the massive cover-up…whoops, investigation. ( Massacre in November, revealed in February. Cover-up? Naw. The Pony Express could have notified Washington faster…but I digress. ). We know that no Marines have been specifically charged in the Haditha incident, though as the cite above proves, 7 Marines face possible murder charges relating to yet another killing.

They cannot have it both ways. They cannot swagger around, whipping a sword up next to their face in dress uniform in the commercials with their eyes oh-so steely in gaze, climbing up rock faces and looking all the world the strong upstanding ( -cough- moral ?? ) American Heroes and yet when the Goin’ Gets Rough, the Marines Get Murderin’.

The jury is not in yet. When it is in, I suspect that quite a few of those steely-eyed heroes are going to swing for blowing out the brains of 4 year old babies. Yes. In Haditha, some of the murder victims were under 5.

What was that quote again? Oh yeah. " Hagee was tight-lipped about the investigations but said Marines “absolutely know right from wrong.” "

:rolleyes:

Cartooniverse

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Of course they know right from wrong. They have a firm moral purpose and pursue the imperative of the invasion to do wrong. How else the accomplishments?

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Perhaps he just meant that Marines are expected to know NOT to do this sort of thing, and if guilty will be punished accordingly, not given a pass because “they didn’t know any better”.

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If they know right from wrong why the recent need for “core ethics” training? Shouldn’t they have gotten that before they shipped out?

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Of course, ‘knowing right from wrong’ is not logically equivalent to ‘doing only right.’
Good general Hagee appears to have eliminated any defense of the killers, if they are killers, based on that old saw about never attributing to evil what can adequately be explained by stupidity.

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Not sure what your point is here. As other’s have mentioned, he is stating that if they commited the acts they are accused of, they have no defense.

No, “But it’s war. We can do that in war.”

No, “But my Seargent told me to do it.”

Now, I don’t know if this is where his feelings truly lie or whether he was trying to salvage the Corps image but I see nothing wrong or revealing in his statement.

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If the Stanford Prison Experiment taught us anything it is that good people, who definitely know the difference between right and wrong can do very bad things when there isn’t a strong leadership to prevent the worst human impulses coming to the fore.

If they did what they are accused of, it is because of the situation they were in and the fact that there was no-one stopping this kind of behaviour.

However, that does not excuse the marines responsible for the murders in any way, or make them less culpable for their actions- it just means that their superiors should have made it impossible for such a terrible thing to occur.

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Speaking of juries, are you aware that not knowing right from wrong can result in a successful defense under an insanity plea? So, are you suggesting that the marines, if they did what is alleged, should be found not guilty due to insanity?

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Much to the contrary, John. They’re not one bit insane, though I do suspect they will all use it as their defense to avoid being held responsible for their actions.

Oh. Are you referring perhaps to the same superiors who conducted a very highly coordinated and carefully pulled off effort to conceal the actions of that day in November 2005, until February 2006 when finally the truth came to light? Those superiors?

Uh huh. It is not just nine murderers, it is the fish rotting from the head.Dubious Weasle asked my point? Exactly that. The culture of complete and utter irresponsibility, lying in public to all concerned, covering up and vigorously denying until evidence is horrifyingly irrefutable- then immediately attacking the left-wing media for providing said evidence.

CNN didn’t kill those men, women and babies. The Untied States Marine Corps did, and the sooner those who froth at the mouth to defend the Marines and in the same red-faced bespittled moment ravage a media whose job it is to shed light, not cast a huge dark shadow of deniability admit this, the sooner we will all know the truth.

Which, from what has been proven to be true so far, won’t cast such favorable light on either the nine murderers or their superiors ( both immediate and farther up the chain of command ).

My point? They killed innocents because it’s perfectly okay to do so. They knew it, and are outraged to be accused of doing anything other than the President’s bidding. Think that’s an outrageous statement? Just wait until we all hear their defenses.

If it ever comes to trial. Which I suspect it will not, because a trial of nine US Marines during an Election Year is something the White House will do everything to shove off until next year. Heck, it took four months for the truth to start to even leak out around the edges of the darkness thrown over the event by the United States Marines.

It would be the right thing, if this proceeded apace with care and respect for the rights of ALL involved ( yeah, including those on patrol that day ), but one suspects this will go away. Fast.

Why? Because the #1 terrorist in Iraq was blown away by a 500 pound bomb last night, and the White House is way too busy crowing over this to worry about a bunch of shot-up civillians.

Murder is as murder does. I cannot even fathom such loathing, such craving for blood and violence that makes it okay to spray gunfire through the brains of a child less than 5, of a woman holding her child as she huddles against a wall, through an old man as he sits watching.

Apparently, that’s the Marine Corps Way. And now, in the aftermath of these events, they will undergo “Core Values” training. -smirk- Apparently they don’t learn core human values when they become United States Marines. It has to be force fed to them now, in the field.

Nice. :frowning:

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Wanna bet?

So, are you saying that they do, in fact, no right from wrong? If so, what exactly is this Pit thread about again?

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The ethics training is bullshit - just something to do. “Gee Sarge, I never knew not to shoot babies before. Thanks for telling me.”

The heads of the Marines involved will roll. They’re just cannon fodder. The real test will be to see if the heads of those who looked at the report stating the civilians were killed by the bomb, looked at the pictures showing bullet holes, and saw no issues, will roll. If they don’t , and they’ve never rolled before, the message is cover it up, since there is no downside. Just don’t get caught.

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I don’t deny what they (very likely) did was horrible, awful, wrong, and deserving of the utmost punishment.

That said, not all Marines are vicious murderers. Not all Marines are figurative jarheads who don’t think and can’t decide between right and wrong. Let’s face it: there are bad people and sometimes bad people get stuck in positions where they can do bad things. Sometimes those bad seeds take their power and use it to influence others to do wrong (like the previously mentioned Stanford Experiment). This is all pretty basic, in fact I’m sure your eyes are currently rolling :).

Watching the news and hearing people talk (even around the board), the general sentiment seems to be that this instance exemplifies the Corps (along with the Army, Navy, etc.)- nothing could be further from the truth. Just like there are bad doctors who find joy in killing people, that hardly is representative of the entire medical field. The nature of war makes the instances of excess violence and generally awful power abuses more common than in any other field.

Meh. My $.02.

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Gee. What’s the Pit thread about? This isn’t G.D. It’s about the very fact that this happened, about the fact ( seemingly, yes, but the facts are really fucking piling up nicely ) that it was covered up by Marine commanders.

At about 2:05pm today ( 6/8/06 ), CNN announced on air that the unit sent in after the unit alleged to have murdered the civillians took photographs of the scene. Many photos. While this is not news, it is news that Defense Department sources said clearly that many but not all of the victims were shot to death in their beds.

What’s this Pit thread about? The motherfucking US Marines who can do no wrong, are regarded blindly as the great American heroes. One does indeed wonder just exactly what Core Values training they do get. We can see what this core values slide show is about. Ooooooh, that’s gonna change a lot of minds. :rolleyes:

I agree with what Voyager said. They will be charged. I personally doubt any one of them will lose their rank- much much better to promote than to convict. :slight_smile: As for the Marine chain of command? It all really depends on who is owed favors and who knows where other bodies are buried. Typically, the chain of command stops with the person who knows where bodies are buried, because that person ( he or she ) is unindictable.

Some middling level unit commander will get a stern talking to, no doubt. And, in a year or so when good loyal Americans have forgotten this little unpleasantness, be promoted up the ladder anyway.

Oh, they know right from wrong. Why did I quote the Commandant? Because he stands there and says what I quote him as having said. Because he lies to the United States of America in saying what he said. Is it not completely horrifying to say, " They know right from wrong but fuck that shit, they may know it but they don’t fucking DO right or wrong, they just DO" ??

Cause, it appears that there is incontrovertible proof that they knew right, they knew wrong, they chose to go get their rocks off blowing sleeping civillians away in their beds.

I’m sorry, what does Semper Fi mean again? Fuck, if I had any shred of belief in those jokers and had that bumper sticker on my car, I’d be out there scraping it off in utter shame right now.

That’s what this thread is about.

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Your points are valid, but I’m genuinely curious: do you believe that these guys are representative of all Marines?

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And sometimes good people crack under the strain of being put in an impossible position.

Maybe the Marines at Haditha were all dangerous psychos, but I doubt it. More likely they were regular guys pushed beyond the breaking point by recent attacks on their platoon that they couldn’t predict, defend themselves against, or adequately retaliate against.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not excusing what happened. If they did what they are accused of doing, they should be punished for it, full stop. But we shouldn’t pretend that only monsters are capable of such actions. Perfectly average people can commit monstrous acts in the proper circumstances.

By all accounts William Calley was a nice guy. According to Wikipedia these days he runs a jewelry store in Georgia. If he had never gone to Vietnam he probably would have led an unremarkable, normal life. But he’s still responsible for those deaths at My Lai.

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Perhaps the words “professional” and “solider” need never be pushed next to each other again ?

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**Pochacco **, well said. You said exactly what I was trying to, but better :slight_smile:

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Pochacco, you raise perfectly valid points.

However, you’re blaming the victims here. Oh, the poor poor wretched soldiers, driven to the brink. Why, those filthy little you-know-whats, they practically had it coming !

Please. The finger, it only gets pointed in one direction, ok? I pray you’re not blaming the torn up bits of flesh that’s all that is left of the people murdered… ? There’s this little thing called “accountability”. Odd word, I know, when talking about our mighty mighty armed forces and yet… we dream.

This is the modern-day Dayenu, the song sung on Passover. ( Dayenu means, " It would have been enough".

If the jarheads had killed the insurgent hiding in the house, it would have been enough.

If they had inadvertently shot a civillian while doing so, it would have been enough.

If they had shot in large mortars and killed a family while blowing up the house where a known insurgent was hiding who had just bombed their unit, it would have been enough.

If any of those things actually occurred, it would have been enough. Incredibly, none of those things occurred because there WAS NO INSURGENT ANYWHERE TO KILL IN THAT HOUSE.

If the jarheads killed all of those civillians and paid off the families ( they did. ), it would have been enough.

If they killed the civillians and paid off the families and then their immediate superiors found out and immediately launched a thorough and vigorous investigation, it would have been enough.

If the truth had come out weeks afterwards, late as that might be considering the survivor’s testimony already videotaped, the Marines who have spoken, the video footage and still photos, it would have been enough.

However… since it took many months and a newspaper article to out the story, uncover the cover-up, point the finger of light and truth towards the United States Marine Corps who had a chain of command dedicated to hiding the truth regardin this even, yanno what? It isn’t enough.

They won’t be killed as murderers, though apparently that is one recourse available in military prosecutions. They won’t even serve time in jail. They’re the Few, the Proud. The White House is aching to take a pass on this and if they get their way, that is exactly what shall happen.

Folks want to strut around proclaiming how the World’s Penultimate Leader In Military Force And Might And Right is over there, doing their dandiest? Goodie. I think the world just saw a prime example of their dandies and you know what?

It leaves me singularly unimpressed. As soldiers, as humans and as Americans, the Marines appear to have screwed the pooch. Interesting that you brought up My Lai. I’ve no doubt that will be the core of the defense that gets each and every one of them off scot-free.

We read it here first. The My Lai Syndrome. Excellent…

To answer the question asked directly by DiosaBellissima, yes. Absolutely. It is a complete culture of disrespect, disregard and disengagement from one’s fellow human. How can I say such a thing?

Why, look at the immediate response. Not a small investigation involving ONLY those Marines. They’re launching Core Values Training in Iraq. In the field. Why? Because it’s not just 9 or so Marines.

It is a culture. This is what is so painful to witness. We learned nothing from My Lai, except how to cover up, so the next time ( read: right now, in Iraq ) we could cover up for longer, and more efficiently.

The culture that demands respect and fear has gone homicidal, and that is so very sad. Sad indeed. For surely, if the DOD and Marine Commandant felt it was such an isolated incident involving 9 renegades, there would be absolutely NO NEED for Core Values Training.

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And yes, this is a Rant. That’s why it’s in the Pit.

If I didn’t give two fucks and thought it would be amusing to debate the merits of the prosecution in a detached way, I’d have posted into G.D.

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That’s not at all what Pochaccois saying at all. All he/she said that the Marines may have been put into an untenable position, and acted badly. Never once attributed to the victims.

What’s your beef in this? I can understand being outraged that this has happened, but to vehemently say that this is a failure of all Marines, and by extention all US military AND is part of a concerted cover-up by more than just the unit involved, puts you closer to the conspiracy crowd than pissed off citizen.