Methinks The Marine Commandant Doth Protest Too Much.

The BBQ Pit
21

I think the Commandant was simply covering the ass of the Corps, and trying to snip the connection between the accused and their chain of command. They knew right from wrong because we trained them to know. It is understood that Marines will risk death to retrieve their dead from the battlefield, but apparently they won’t stand up to retrieve embarrassing Marines from the courtroom.

You were asking Cartooniverse, but I’ll give you my answer as well. If you mean “would every Marine have done what these are accused of doing,” then no. However, every Marine is expected to act honorably because the uniform represents the Corps to the world.

Disclaimer: I was never a Marine, not was I in any other branch of the military. I didn’t pass the draft physical.

22

[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
However, you’re blaming the victims here. Oh, the poor poor wretched soldiers, driven to the brink. Why, those filthy little you-know-whats, they practically had it coming !
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps you missed the part where I wrote:

If their fingers were on the triggers, they ultimately were responsible for what happened and they should pay for it. The fact that they were in a shitty situation doesn’t get them off the hook.

The world isn’t made up of Good Guys and Bad Guys. We all have the capacity for good and evil within us. It’s dangerous to pretend that only Bad Guys do Bad Things because that blinds us to the potential that normal people have to commit evil acts in extraordinary circumstances.

If the Marines killed the civilians at Haditha, that’s their fault. They pulled the triggers. But unless they were a platoon of closet psychopaths it’s also the fault of the chain of command that allowed it to happen.

23

You know what the saddest part of this is? I just don’t care. I mean, on some level I do, on the most basic human level, but at this point I am singularly removed from any feelings about the world today.

For five years now, it has been one outrage after the other. Unfortunatly, they were all are own, except for 9/11. Katrina, Iraq in general, Torra Bora, the economy, global warming, gas prices, Abu Gharib, NCLB, election fraud, the shameful bipartisanship that permeates throughout the nation, etc etc. Just ask yourself what we have accomplished over these last couple years, then compare that to what we were expecting to accomplish or what actually happened.

And so I frankly am outraged out. I’m just tired of being sickened and ashamed by our country. (Sure, it was a “few bad apples”, but they do represent America, like it or not.)

I also remember reading how Nixon changed the perception Americans had of the government. After him, an entire generation didn’t trust the government.

I came to age under Bush, beginning to really follow politics while he has been president. And now, I find the idea of expecting anything but lies from the White House to be a rather quaint idea.

Honesty? Integrity? Accountablility? How is that supposed to work?

Oh, a cover-up you say? Well, what did you expect?

Killing multiple civilians, execution style? Thousands upon thousands of civilians have already been killed, and no official body count has ever been taken. So what’s a few more?

It just pisses me off I feel this way, but I don’t think I can manage to feel any other way. I hate growing up in this time, growing up expecting gross war crimes and various tragedies as a matter of course. I hate hearing the news all the time, how we continue to occupy some country that did bugger all to us. I hate being tired of caring about fellow humans. I just simply can’t care anymore.

24

[QUOTE=ZebraShaSha]
For five years now, it has been one outrage after the other. Unfortunatly, they were all are own, except for 9/11. Katrina, Iraq in general, Torra Bora, the economy, global warming, gas prices, Abu Gharib, NCLB, election fraud, the shameful bipartisanship that permeates throughout the nation, etc etc. Just ask yourself what we have accomplished over these last couple years, then compare that to what we were expecting to accomplish or what actually happened.
[/QUOTE]

But they lowered taxes…and that’s what real Americans care about. You must not be a real American.

-Joe

25

[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
Apparently they don’t learn core human values when they become United States Marines.
[/QUOTE]
More likely they have to unlearn them to some degree.

26

Cartooniverse:

What exactly are you pitting here? Are you pitting the idea that Marines who violate the law are going to be prosecuted? Or are you pitting some mythical (false) idea you have about what Marines are and do?

27

Were it mythical and false, ( and, I have no trouble repeating this point, and providing copious cites in case folks think somehow I’m making this up ), the Marines would not be instituting Core Values Training for all personnel in Iraq.

Core. Values.

I didn’t chose those words. The military did, ok?If anyone feels it is false logic to teach the Marines Core Values, I heartily encourage you to contact the Department of Defense in Washington. They’re in the book. :slight_smile:

In point of fact, my idea of what Marines do is neither mythical nor false. While both recent incidents have not come to trial and so I suppose that even though this is the Pit and not G.D., you could insist angrily that I not cast any aspersions, I’m going to anyway. This IS the Pit. I AM enraged at what they did. Won’t be the first time someone ranted in the Pit, yanno…

Some United States Marines did some very very very very very bad things in Iraq recently. That is neither false, nor is it mythical.

Exactly what will you have to say to me after all nine of the Haditha suspects are found guilty of murder, kidnapping and conspiracy? ( the charge that, according to a CNN broadcast, the US Military is considering filing against all of them ) ?

I have a lot of respect for you, Monty, but nobody gets to call false or mythical until the jury is in on either of these cases. I mean, you certainly can and just did basically call me a liar and that’s okay, but as I said- what are you going to have to say after they’re convicted? After the Core Values Training that apparently only I’ve heard about has been conducted much to the bemusement of hardened Marines.

Man. You’re asking me to re-post an answer I just gave? Fine. You asked what I am Pitting. I am Pitting the culture of appalling disrespect, disregard for human life and utter contempt for morals and the law. Again, if it were just a few bad apples, the Marines would not be pissing away money that they could make better use of by producing and touring a Core Values Program in Iraq.

I am Pitting the fact that these guys ( and gals, I don’t know if there are women in the unit also, no mention has been made one way or the other ) went and did what they did in both incidents. Then, let us look at the phrase that’s supposed to be revered and respected- Chain of Command. Oooooh. The big bosses. Guess what? They covered up Haditha too and that is as much the focus of the Marine Corps’ investigation as the murders themselves, and that is plainly stated BY THE COMMANDANT in the cite I provided.

It is not a few bad apples. It is a culture. You asked what I am Pitting? I couldn’t be more concise.

28

[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
I am Pitting the fact that these guys ( and gals, I don’t know if there are women in the unit also, no mention has been made one way or the other ) went and did what they did in both incidents. Then, let us look at the phrase that’s supposed to be revered and respected- Chain of Command. Oooooh. The big bosses. Guess what? They covered up Haditha too and that is as much the focus of the Marine Corps’ investigation as the murders themselves, and that is plainly stated BY THE COMMANDANT in the cite I provided.

It is not a few bad apples. It is a culture. You asked what I am Pitting? I couldn’t be more concise.
[/QUOTE]

So by your logic, these events (both the massacre and the cover up) would not be investigated, due to their culture . If this were indeed their culture , neither you nor I would have heard about it most likely. I don’t think you have the faintest idea of what military culture is all about.

Now as to the Core Values training, I don’t think it’s a bad idea. These Marines are most certainly getting desensitized towards violence. I can understand that given their operating environment. They do in fact need a reminder of what is borderline, and unacceptable behavior. That is important. And needs to be reinforced.
That being said, the investigations are proceeding, and I look forward to accountability and justice being done.

29

[QUOTE=krisolov]
So by your logic, these events (both the massacre and the cover up) would not be investigated, due to their culture . If this were indeed their culture , neither you nor I would have heard about it most likely. I don’t think you have the faintest idea of what military culture is all about.

Now as to the Core Values training, I don’t think it’s a bad idea. These Marines are most certainly getting desensitized towards violence. I can understand that given their operating environment. They do in fact need a reminder of what is borderline, and unacceptable behavior. That is important. And needs to be reinforced.
That being said, the investigations are proceeding, and I look forward to accountability and justice being done.
[/QUOTE]

I get what you’re trying to say, but I personally feel it’s bullshit. Grown adult men need to be reminded that shooting and killing women and children in their beds is unacceptable behavior?

I’m rather with Zebra on this, I’m upset with myself that I can’t work up the outrage that I think I should have. With all the scandals in the military the last couple years, I just can’t and that really saddens me.

30

[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
From This article
(bolding mine)

Anyone following the emerging details of both incidents are going to be extremely hard-pressed to believe that Marines absolutely know right from wrong.

Or, more to the point, is the version of right and wrong that many parents teach their children not at all the version of right and wrong that is taught at Paris Island ?

This person is the Marine Commandant- the head of the United States Marine Corps. He states that Marines know right from wrong.

We are all aware that the investigations are in the early stages of the massive cover-up…whoops, investigation. ( Massacre in November, revealed in February. Cover-up? Naw. The Pony Express could have notified Washington faster…but I digress. ). We know that no Marines have been specifically charged in the Haditha incident, though as the cite above proves, 7 Marines face possible murder charges relating to yet another killing.

They cannot have it both ways. They cannot swagger around, whipping a sword up next to their face in dress uniform in the commercials with their eyes oh-so steely in gaze, climbing up rock faces and looking all the world the strong upstanding ( -cough- moral ?? ) American Heroes and yet when the Goin’ Gets Rough, the Marines Get Murderin’.

The jury is not in yet. When it is in, I suspect that quite a few of those steely-eyed heroes are going to swing for blowing out the brains of 4 year old babies. Yes. In Haditha, some of the murder victims were under 5.

What was that quote again? Oh yeah. " Hagee was tight-lipped about the investigations but said Marines “absolutely know right from wrong.” "

:rolleyes:

Cartooniverse
[/QUOTE]

Oh god, STFU, when Marines start beheading people get back to me.

31

[QUOTE=Operation Ripper]
Oh god, STFU, when Marines start beheading people get back to me.
[/QUOTE]

Dead is dead. Whether it’s by beheading or by an M-16, the result is ultimately the same.

32

[QUOTE=Antinor01]
I get what you’re trying to say, but I personally feel it’s bullshit. Grown adult men need to be reminded that shooting and killing women and children in their beds is unacceptable behavior?

[/QUOTE]

How many of your friends have you seen shot down right in front of you? How many times have you been shot at? How many times have you seen your best friends literally blown up? What’s the most dead bodies you’ve seen at one time?

Maybe you’re in the military or a combat veteran, in which case I’ll zip it- but if you aren’t, I don’t think it’s fair to say that we can understand that mind set. Just talking to my military friends, I can tell you that going over there really changes their personalities.

Of course it isn’t right, but that doesn’t change the fact that a person might get really, really fucked up seeing awful stuff on a nonstop basis. Do you believe that all the claims of Post Traumatic Stress from Vietnam are false? Were the Marines who came back and slaughtered their families just plain evil?

33

[QUOTE=krisolov]
So by your logic, these events (both the massacre and the cover up) would not be investigated, due to their culture . If this were indeed their culture , neither you nor I would have heard about it most likely. I don’t think you have the faintest idea of what military culture is all about.
[/QUOTE]

It doesn’t surprise me that some are reduced to attacking the OP’er. That’s what happens then they’re frantically trying to take a stance but realize they’re standing on a balsa wood platform.

So. I have never served in the armed forces. You are correct. I have no idea what a military culture is about. I do live within 20 miles of West Point, and so read a LOT MORE interviews with officers running the joint than your average American might. It appears from a civillian’s point of view that the culture is supposed to be based on ( in no particular order of significance ) Rule of Law, high moral stand, understanding right from wrong, learning, absorbing and obeying all rules of compat and engagement, never doing anything to violate the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

If you are accusing me, based on my OP, that I have no idea what military culture is about, then are you in fact saying that the Haditha incident reflects accurately the current military culture in the United States Marines? If so, then that’s a wee bit horrifying.

If not, why then you and I are in perfect agreement. :slight_smile:

34

[QUOTE=Pochacco]
But we shouldn’t pretend that only monsters are capable of such actions. Perfectly average people can commit monstrous acts in the proper circumstances.
[/QUOTE]

Pochacco,

I understand your point and agree with you that almost anybody, pushed far enough, can go terribly off the rails. But when that happens, it’s fair to reasses their character. How better to define a monster than “one who commits a monstrous act”? For some observers, that one exceptional moment in an otherwise normal life is a fair criterion for reassignment to the monster category. YM, obviously, MV.

11811

35

So what’s the deal ** Cartooniverse **?

Your OP wasn’t very clear to me. There is a war going on you know. LOTS of VERY ugly shit happens during war. EVERY war. It’s not right at all; I just can’t see at this point whom you hate, or why you would roll your eyes at such an event. Damn right they lied, what the fuck did you expect? It’s a WAR you idiot! Who are you mad at – what was your point? What the fuck did you expect? I see the sarcasm, but it isn’t very well placed. What happened? Did you sign up for the USMC and they decided you couldn’t handle it? Is that why you make fun? Your question about “core values” is pretty lame. You may want to Google some things about the USMC before you start flinging shit around like that. (yeah I saw your link – lame, official, not real, you should read up on the men and women who actually DO the job).

So let me try and work this out. Because your OP is really unclear.

Do you hate the Marines? (Propaganda is pretty typical in time of war, BTW child, especially when the press HATES the president). Do you then judge ALL marines by the actions of that few? Were you there? You ever been under fire? A team lost it? Went psycho? Like that never happened before did it? – they went from a well disciplined squad, to a gang of well armed thugs- MAYBE. So, kids got shot, Marines were there, Soooo The marines shot the kids? Just like that. You, and ass holes like you, are ready to hang them, and you weren’t even there! I don’t excuse barbarism, but you ought to gather the facts first. Wait for the fucking trial already. Sheep like you think CNN is gospel. In the mean time lets not forget, if it weren’t for the majority of them, you wouldn’t be allowed to even post your stupid opinions here, or anywhere else.

OR; do you Just hate the U.S.A? I noticed your profile doesn’t say where you live, if you are outside the USA, good – I don’t want you here, stay the fuck AWAY. If you are inside the USA, would you please do me and my family the kindness of GETTING THE HELL OUT!

I’m sure Cuba would love to have you, if that’s too small I hear China is taking applications for people who hate the USA, or you could always move to France.
They love people like you over there.

Have a nice trip AWAY from here. Away from MY country. Ass hole.

Unless I had misread your lines. Maybe you can make yourself clearer over what you are bitching about. Until then I am just going to reserve the right to call you a pussy, who isn’t doing anything to further the goals of my country. If you disagree with the goals of this country, and you live here – get out. If you don’t live here, stay out.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

36

Unless that was sarcasm, I believe i’ve met my first person who actually believes all that. Wow.

Hi, Janx.

37

[QUOTE=Janx]
So what’s the deal ** Cartooniverse **?

Your OP wasn’t very clear to me. There is a war going on you know. LOTS of VERY ugly shit happens during war. EVERY war. It’s not right at all; I just can’t see at this point whom you hate, or why you would roll your eyes at such an event. Damn right they lied, what the fuck did you expect? It’s a WAR you idiot! Who are you mad at – what was your point? What the fuck did you expect? I see the sarcasm, but it isn’t very well placed. What happened? Did you sign up for the USMC and they decided you couldn’t handle it? Is that why you make fun? Your question about “core values” is pretty lame. You may want to Google some things about the USMC before you start flinging shit around like that. (yeah I saw your link – lame, official, not real, you should read up on the men and women who actually DO the job).

So let me try and work this out. Because your OP is really unclear.

Do you hate the Marines? (Propaganda is pretty typical in time of war, BTW child, especially when the press HATES the president). Do you then judge ALL marines by the actions of that few? Were you there? You ever been under fire? A team lost it? Went psycho? Like that never happened before did it? – they went from a well disciplined squad, to a gang of well armed thugs- MAYBE. So, kids got shot, Marines were there, Soooo The marines shot the kids? Just like that. You, and ass holes like you, are ready to hang them, and you weren’t even there! I don’t excuse barbarism, but you ought to gather the facts first. Wait for the fucking trial already. Sheep like you think CNN is gospel. In the mean time lets not forget, if it weren’t for the majority of them, you wouldn’t be allowed to even post your stupid opinions here, or anywhere else.

OR; do you Just hate the U.S.A? I noticed your profile doesn’t say where you live, if you are outside the USA, good – I don’t want you here, stay the fuck AWAY. If you are inside the USA, would you please do me and my family the kindness of GETTING THE HELL OUT!

I’m sure Cuba would love to have you, if that’s too small I hear China is taking applications for people who hate the USA, or you could always move to France.
They love people like you over there.

Have a nice trip AWAY from here. Away from MY country. Ass hole.

Unless I had misread your lines. Maybe you can make yourself clearer over what you are bitching about. Until then I am just going to reserve the right to call you a pussy, who isn’t doing anything to further the goals of my country. If you disagree with the goals of this country, and you live here – get out. If you don’t live here, stay out.

Thank you, and have a nice day.
[/QUOTE]

Janx, it’s my understanding that Cartooniverse is a U.S. citizen doing what he is entitled to do, criticize our leaders for permitting and covering up war atrocities.

You, on the other hand, evidently have no clue what the “goals of this country” are. I suggest perhaps you read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution (with amendments), and perhaps a few other documents, like the Atlantic Charter. Especially the latter, now that I think about it.

And, by the way, you may want to do a search and find out what Cartooniverse did on September 11, 2001. Then you may want to write him a humble apology.

I’ll be waiting. But not holding my breath.

38

[QUOTE=Janx]

Have a nice trip AWAY from here. Away from MY country.
[/QUOTE]

It’s interesting that every time I’ve ever seen this sentiment expressed, it always comes from an ignorant asshole. I’m betting you have a magnetic ribbon on your car and think Toby Keith is swell, too.

As an aside, I’m amused at the way we have folks who are squealing that these Marines are innocent until they are convicted in court, but those same people would blow a gasket if you said the same thing about Al-Zarqawi or bin Laden.

39

Perhaps: I have no idea what the man did on 9/11. I come from a long line of Marines
and I took exception with the tone of the OP. I read it as “ Look how fucked up we are now” and “ Why do these jokers lie to us” and in the end “America sucks” I am sick of hearing/seeing shit like this. If the man has a right – have at! But it will NOT change my opinion. My nephew, (army), part of the striker brigade out of Fort Louis WA, got himself killed over there recently. I used to change his diapers, he was my boy as much as he was my sister’s – you know. I see things like the OP and I get mad. Great gramps was in ww1, Gramps was in WW2, my dad was in Korea and some time in Viet Nam, and Timmy died in Iraq. All so that I could be “college boy”. I will look up what the OP has done, and that’s OK. But I would never retract anything I said. From the get go, the OP was like “look how fucked up this is” – This being my country, that hurt. I stand by my words. If the OP is a hero, more power to him, but I still take exception with the way it was presented. As far as the history lesson is goes, please. That was just stupid.

40

Toby…

Toby who?