Did someone just call ME an ignorant ass hole? That was nice, maybe you could elaborate.
Well, for a start, it’s generally spelt “asshole”.
Here’s the thread by Cartooniverse that’s been mentioned. Please do read it; it may not change your opinions of his view, but it might change your opinion of him.
I also think that Cartooniverse’s OP wasn’t all that explanatory; however, I’m nowhere near your asinine camp on the issue.
Probably two things:
- Don’t murder people,
- Don’t lie about murdering people
Military training, specifically training on the laws of armed conflict, is supposed to keep people from deciding that they can murder people because
I’m guessing that he’s mad at two groups of people, now that I’ve re-read the thread:
- The alleged murderers, and
- Those who had any part in covering up the alleged murders
That’s pretty lame of you, and tacky to boot.
So let me try and work this out. Because your OP is really unclear.
{snip}
Nowhere in the Constitution does it require that someone have your permission to reside in the US.
You might want to bone up on those countries’ immigration polices before tossing out assine comments such as that.
You do not personally own the country. Nor are you the absolute monarch/dictator; therefore, your admonition is beneath ridiculous.
If he disagrees with the goals of the current administration, perhaps he should do what he has the right to do: agitate lawfully for reform, campaign for politicians of his choice, vote for candidates whom he believes will do a better job than the current crop, etc.
I imagine he’ll have any kind of day he full well pleases.
And before you decide to call me dirty names, you might want to figure out what I’ve done for my country. Here’s a hint: I’m retired from the Navy.
Monty, you are SO cute!
Got any intelligent comments about my posting or are you merely limited to that observation (oddly enough, lacking any actual observation)?
All right, so I got my ass handed to me, you are all right and I am all wrong.
What I think means NOTHING! Good job dudes! You really changed MY mind!
God where were you when I was on the high school debating team! But that’s OK – now I see everything YOUR way. Thank you for straightening me out. What would I have ever done without you.
Now on to more important matters.
Oh wow ; that was HIM? The same guy I just railed tonight! I read that when it happened. Spooky to see it again. I was living in Brazil at the time. I hung on every post from America. Kudos for what went on, but I still can’t abide by anyone talking smack about my country. All because of that my nephew went off to war. He came back in a card board box. I get so mad because people don’t seem to understand we are still at war. Oh never mind. Thank you for the link – and yes I do owe the man an apology, or at least
A hand shake. But I still stand by my words. It’s been some time. My nephew died last month. Not 4 years ago. All against… Oh never mind - there is NO debate. There is no way to make it right. If I insulted you ** Cartooniverse** then you have my apologies!
I never meant any thing by it, a whole bunch years went by and I saw an OP that really pissed me off. I didn’t recognize the name. But still I stand by most of the stuff I said, not the “ass hole” or “idiot” stuff, I reserve that for nubies.
Hope we can shake hands. I am sorry for the past, but REALLY you gotta work on the hear and now, cos it can really – potentially- upset people.
Doesn’t “talking smack” suggest that the negative things attributed to the U.S. are untrue? Surely you’re willing to accept criticism of the U.S. when it’s well-founded?
Rev? Yeah I am.
Cool. So what parts of Monty’s post did you disagree with?
I’m sorry, I neglected Monty. After all he worked so hard on answering me:
Lets see,
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Name calling, no fair – but he still wants to have a “girl fight”.
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Nice insight into what Monty thinks – I Respect that!
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Some lame technicality about war that nobody would ever listen to.
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Now here he re-reads, some good insight
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I am lame –AND- Tacky , (schweet)
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Something about immigration policies – WHAT A FUCK HEAD.
Obviously you don’t know SHIT about me. -
The rest of it is just pretty piss poor natter.
I tells ya! Monty is CUTE!
Janx: it’s sad fact of the matter that we are judged by the least of us, not the best. Incidents like Abu Ghraib and Haditha confirm the fears and judgements of not only people who don’t like us already, but even worse, those undecided who are watching.
I do understand your feeling that if you haven’t been “in the shit,” you have little basis for passing judgement. You forget, though, the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of uniformed and ununiformed civilians have been “in the shit,” up to their elbows, for weeks on end, in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. They first pulled wounded from the wreckage of the Twin Towers, and treated them (even when they were probably obviously untreatable), and then they pulled body after broken body out from successive layers of rubble.
You don’t have to be on the front lines, toting a rifle and killing a Muhammadan for Mommy to have an informed opinion stemming from a ghastly experience with terrorism; ask plenty of Israelites, too, and you may get plenty of the same sentiments Cartooniverse expressed, if not directed at the same people.
IN the war on terror, we have set ourselves up as “the Good Guys;” while I do believe that our way of life (freedom and democracy) is better than the terrorists (fundamentalist theocracy), and that even if we never made a single misstep those already inclined towards the fundamentalist mindset would never be swayed, the War on Terror is not entirely about fighting them.
It’s primarily about convincing the bulk of those who are watching, undecided, that we and our ways are truly a more benevolent, more moral choice. And in spite of the fact that 99.99~% of our uniformed military can and does act and behave honorably, we unfortunately are not judged by their conduct in the eyes of the Muslim “silent majority,” or indeed the world.
Your generalizations are both baseless and insulting.
I’m a pretty liberal Democrat who firmly believes in the idea that you can hate the war, but support the troops.
As I said upthread, it is very likely that these Marines did something awful and they ought to get punished for it to the maximum. Regardless of the hells of war or even perhaps just the evil of certain individuals, everyone needs to know that this type of behavior is FAR from ok. Oh, and for the record: I have no issue with due process being utilized for bin Laden, Saddam, or (ya know, previously) Al-Zarqawi- - frankly, it pisses me off that our nation seems to think that “All men are created equal” = “All Americans”. So no, that didn’t make me blow a gasket, but thanks for making sure.
I don’t have a magnetic sticker on either of my cars (I heard those are actually bad for the paint, true?), but I do have a sticker for the Marine Corps, a sticker for the Air Force, and a sticker for the Army** all on my bumper. I realize it doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things, but I know it makes my enlisted friends smile when they see that I care.
I also listen to Toby Keith. Fuck, I even went to his concert (and bar and grill, for that matter-- great burgers). Oh, my favorite song is “Courtesy of the Red, White, and Blue (The Angry American)” because I think the song is just so goddamn funny. My other favorite song is “American Soldier” because it is truly a beautiful song. Yes, I’m patriotic. Yes, I get a little teary eyed when I hear a nice rendition of the national anthem. Yes, I listen to Toby Keith and have military stickers on my cars. Does that suddenly mean I’m too ignorant to be politically active? Much like Toby Keith himself, I am a Democrat who supports the military.
Obviously, those who do wrong need to be punished so fast that their heads spin (following due process, naturally), but these generalizations that ALL Soldiers and Marines are murderers that are just foaming at the mouth to get another kill are silly.
For the record- I was nodding along with the first part of Janx’s post- then BOOM. Totally wrong. I just got a bit personally insulted by the above quoted comment. So. . .
If you think the fact that I support the military and listen to Toby Keith makes me an “ignorant asshole”- fuck you. Pot. Kettle.
In my group of friends I’ve got: 3 Marines (one is my ex of two years), 2 Airmen (my best friend-- a fellow Doper and my cousin), and two soldiers (one of which was killed in a roadside bombing). Of course this is going to color my opinion of the military, but I like to think that I’m generally a logical person when it comes to things.
I am glad this is the pit so I can say:
You have got to be fucking kidding me.
Um. Hi. I’ve read everything posted in here twice since my last post.
And, there you have it. Now I don’t have to keep answering people when they ask me what I’m Pitting.
I took some time to cool off before posting this. Yeah, it’s the Pit but that doesn’t mean I have to write with the full vitriol I was feeling a while ago.
In order of real importance:
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Janx, I’m profoundly sorry for the loss of your nephew. Just as my OP is about the dehumanizing of civillians in Iraw, nothing makes a war more human and real than losing someone you know and love to it. I can’t imagine how bad this is for your family, and you do have my condolences.
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Like many other Americans, I detest the policy but try to support the people whose lives are on the line. My OP came out of a painful lack of respect- and a growing anger and horror over a systemic problem so serious that funds are being diverted from oh, say, better body armor… to pay for Core Values Training.
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ExTank articulated the true underlying source of my anger so perfectly, that I thank you, wherever you are. I’m very patriotic. It is possible to be far left wing and be incredibly patriotic. If we wanna be The Good Guys then we had better hop on board those Galaxy Transport Planes already firmly posessed of Core Values. When Iraqis truly believe that the example we are setting is the life they wish to live, their own army and police will begin to embody those Core Values- and our presence there will no longer be needed. Sadly, our example homicidal and our image is badly tarnished.
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Thank you, Polycarp.
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It doesn’t surprise me that this has become personal. I didn’t write the OP to get flamed, but I also stand by what I said, and how I feel. I believe in Good and Bad, and that just about everyone out there who knows the difference can make a difference when the moment comes to choose.
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By Labor Day I am hoping that either I will have been proved to be an overreacting flaming liberal, or someone who foresaw accurately a vigorous whitewashing by the very upper echelons of power in Washington, D.C.
Janx, apology accepted humbly. I understand why you took my OP as a very personal attack- I would in your shoes.
Look, what’s the difference between a US Professional Soldier and an urban guerilla? The very thing we have seen in war after war after war. The guerillas/ martyrs believe they are killing and dying for a glorious cause and sleep well forever after.
Those who make huge emotional and mental and physical sacrifices in the cause deemed worthy by our government pay inside for decades afterwards- as do their family and friends. The need to be morally restrained in the moment of terrible moral choices defines a Professional Soldier, in my very very very untrained opinion.
Someone up there talked about the guy who now runs a store who was named in the My Lai Massacre. I suspect he’s still paying for his moral corruption.
In Haditha, we will probably never know what really happened because the agenda pushed by the Marines and the DOD supercedes the agenda of a free and informed society and those who argue against that point of view are typically called traitors or worse.
That’s a real shame. Our nation endures because we are able to stand in very harsh light and either shoulder the blame for our actions or explain the seemingly unexplainable honestly and completely.
What would please me? Well, those poor civillians of all ages are months dead and nothing brings them back, just as nothing brings back Janx’s lost nephew. Dead is dead on this planet. It would please me to find out that those who pulled the triggers and knew what they were really doing, as well as those up the Chain of Command who orchestrated a many-months long cover-up would simply stop it.
Stop all of it. Confess to exactly what they have done, and in the honorable tradition of the United States Marines, suck it the fuck up and take what they have coming to them for the atrocities they inflicted.
You cannot very well crow about Honor if you are incapable of showing any.
I missed that last post on Preview.
No I am not fucking kidding anyone. If I want to kid around, I do so in MPSIMS and there are copious 
sprinkled about like jimmies on a soft ice cream cone.
I’m serious as a fucking heart attack in this thread.
I confess it’s hard for me to believe you honestly, and seriously, believe that this is THE CULTURE of the Marines, and these terrible stories represent a regular, accepted part of the Marines’ deployment.
I completely understand being horrified by what happened,and disgusted by the coverup. However, I do not understand the wholesale condemnation of an entire branch of the military, the impugning of all the men and women serving in the Corps. When I first read it, I assumed it was some kind of hysterical chest-beating you got carried away with. However, you tell me you’re serious.
I don’t know a whole lot about the Marine Corps or the conditions of their deployment–there are better people than me who should probably address that in this thread–but what little I do know makes me wonder where someone would get the idea that this is their culture.
Maybe you could tell us a little more about the basis for that statement, that it’s not a few bad apples but rather the culture.
How many Marines do you know? How familiar are you with their jobs? With the activities of their deployment? Many Americans like myself hear about or even know Marines who served in Iraq and had countless opportunity to murder innocent civilians, but didn’t. Some of them even made personal efforts to help Iraqis. How does that fit in with this culture you claim is the Corps? Are their stories all lies? Are these Marines freakish exceptions?
I’ve been lurking in this thread for a while, allow me to take a stab at bridging the Cartoonivers and Janx worldviews.
I generally have to agree with Janx that it’s unfair to condemn the Marine Corps as a whole for the actions of a few. There are a lot of reasons to hold heartfelt respect and admiration for the members of our armed forces.
Furthermore, I also agree with his statements along the lines of, “welcome to war, war is hell.” Militaries are blunt objects and it speaks to the folly of the Bush administration in believing that it could carry out an invasion and occupation without breaking eggs (anti-American animosity, collateral damage, and even murder on the part of our troops). Some degree of raping and pillaging will unfortunately happen with any foreign occupation and it’s another reason to think long and hard before attempting to use the military to further any goal.
Not that any of this excuses the actions of the specific Marines involved in the Hafitha incident or the MP’s in Abu Gharib or hundreds of other non-reported or under reported incidents throughout the Iraqi war.
Okay, so now I’ll come at things from Cartooniverse’s side. I think I would agree that the USMC’s reaction to these incidents has been pretty poor. An organization of integrity worthy of respect would perform meaningful investigations of potential wrongdoing by its members and it wouldn’t require Time magazine to police it. When allegations were presented to the chain of command the default action would be further invesigation, not burial of the issue and pay-offs for the surviving victims. Apparently that simply isn’t the case. Instead it takes blazingly strong evidence presented in the mass media to compel the Corps to action.
Once inappropriate behavior was discovered, IMHO, the actions of an organization with integrity would be meaningful soul searching and a willingness to own up to these failures, not a PR gambit to make sure that the full measure of the problems of its actions were hidden by opposing the release of photos on “national security” grounds.
Again, the Commondant of the Corps seems to have failed this test of integrity.
No, it’s not fair to smear the names of all Marines, but when the immediate chain of command accepts “road-side bomb” as the cause of death for three whole households of people whom have obvious gun shot wounds in photos and when uncovering attrocities takes months and severe pressure from the media, and when the head-honcho’s reaction to all of this isn’t to chasten his organization or improve it but to play PR spin-doctor, I don’t think it’s unreasonable that citizens question their armed forces.
Again, I have a great deal of respect for our armed forces but they face a number of vexing issues that need to be dealt with through strong leadership, not ass-covering.
I may be able to answer you in two weeks. My son finishes three months at Parris (nitpick) Island on June 23rd. I’ll ask him what he got taught the last three months.
Janx: And post #50 is supposed to show that you’re not a troll…exactly how?
No, I am not a combat vet. I do come from a line of military folks though, my grandfather was a bomber pilot in WW2, my father and several uncles were army officers during vietnam, several cousins and friends were in the first Iraq conflict etc. I haven’t been through it personally but I have as good a perspective on it as one could without that firsthand experience. I also realize that the lack of firsthand experience means I will never fully understand.
PTSD is a real thing, I know that. People have been through tramautic things and it led them to commit horrible acts. Do I think they’re all evil, no. Do I think they need to be removed from society until they are not a danger to themselves and others, yes.
As I stated, I see the point that the experience can change a person(intellect speaking), but that doesn’t negate my feeling that having to be told that killing children is wrong is crap (emotions speaking).