We are indeed in perfect agreement.
Where we appear to disagree is the culture of the cover up. I don’t agree that it is pervasive in any way, but acknowledge that in this case the investigation is too late. The investigation, regardless of the timing needs to be thorough, demonstrate accountability and live up to the values of the military.
this, abu gharib, gitmo, Tilman’s death -how many "oopies’ + coverups w/o any corresponding “Oopsie +mno coverup” does it take to suggest that if it ain’t a culture, it’s definately a helluva trend?
Why, I’ll be delighted to. Rather, I will point you to a first-person explanation from someone who I suspect you will listen to more than me. I may have my opinion, but you are already angry with that.
Instead, carefully read this Department of Defense press release. You want skew? You want a spin on this that is just as incredibly slanted towards the military as humanly possible? Here ya go. And yet… even the DOD is having trouble with the truth, which is that Core Values Training are required throughout all armed forces units in Iraq immediately..
If that does not show an utter and complete culture of moral decay, what does? One does not piss away dollars when one is not absolutely compelled to. The DOD itself is compelled to produce Core Values Training slide shows. And make all service personnel sit through them.
In this press conference, Brigadier General Don Campbell says the following: *******
Okay, so. The Department of Defense scrambles and admits they must conduct Core Value Training. This Brigadier General says what he says up there, amongst other rather embarassing ( to him, no doubt ) statements in the interview linked.
The basis for my statement has been amply supported by both of these cites. It is a culture, not a few bad apples. As you can see if you read the entire interview with Brig. General Campbell, there are quite a few illegal murders of unarmed civillians being investigated but he won’t go into details on most of them.
That does not mean they are not real. That only means he won’t talk about them. I will be glad to provide even more varied cites backing up my OP assertion, which is that this is a culture issue within the Marine Corps, and by extension the US Military in Iraq. This is not a few bad apples.
******* in light of the vitriol in this thread, I wanted to point out that the Brig. General named HIMSELF as Don, not Donald. I wasn’t playing cute with a US General’s first name.
Cartooniverse
I won’t go so far as to say that a requirement that all personnel receive refresher training in “core values” is an indication that the entire group is morally decayed. One can just as easily argue that it’s a knee-jerk reaction by those in charge, albeit a PR knee-jerk reaction.
-sigh- It is a brutal stretch to say that sleeping toddlers having their brains blown out earns nothing but a PR knee-jerk reaction to an issue that only was created by the media.( I’m not putting those words into your mouth, I am instead expanding on your post. )
PR knee-jerk? Well. Okay. If Core Values Training is unneccessary, then please follow the logic on from there.
If this is not a systemic issue, then you are right, no Core Values Training is necessary.
If this is not a systemic problem, then this would be an isolated incident, not one of quite a few ( see the cite above, and read directly from the nice Brig. General’s comments ). This isn’t My Lai. It’s one of quite a sick handful of incidents.
I’ve no idea if the entire group is morally decayed. What I feel very very strongly is that a whole fuckload more than nine “bad apples” are completely morally corrupt. Start with the entire Marine chain of command in Iraq.
Who polices the Heroes when they turn out to be villans, eh ? 
Who polices the chain of command when the chain has turned in on itself, and will do anything to protect it’s own from the harsh light of truth and Honor ?
Yeah. PR knee jerk. The same PR machine that let Time Magazine shed some light on the cover-up?
Then guess what?
God Bless PR Machines…
The difference, Cartooniverse, between what you and I are saying is simply that you are trying to make it look like it’s either 100% or 0%. That ain’t so, and I would hope you knew that.
Let’s see: Tillman’s death is relevant how? It was a friendly fire incident. In another country with a different branch of service. Near as I can tell the confused truth has come out.
Gitmo: what exactly are you charging has been covered up? Were this past weeks suicudes covered up? The recent riot/guard assault? Has the Red Cross been in there recently?
Abu Ghraib: I seem to recall courts martial and people going to prison over this. Not eactly a good cover up.
Now I am not saying that bad things don’t happen. They do, and especially in war. I think it would be a natural human reaction to be ashamed and not want to report bad things. But the bad things ARE coming to light, and ARE getting investigated. You may not be satisfied with the pace of investigations, but the simple fact is there ARE investigations. The system is working.
Uh…do you mean shameful partisanship?
Sailboat
That is an appalling excuse to deliver to the families of the murdered children, you know.
" Listen up you people- do you have any idea how SMALL the percentage is of Marines who would probably maybe possibly do something like this?? Well, DO YOU? How dare you scream at us. Here. Have $ 1,800.00 and shut up. "
Uh…huh. :rolleyes:
Look, I didn’t write the propaganda, I’m just pointing out the disgusting hypocrisy. If you’re mad at the percentages, find the person who wrote,
The Few. The Proud. The Marines.
The few? Let’s see now. The few is at least nine just in Haditha, not to mention the other acts of atrocity currently being investigated ( see the Brig. General’s comments linked above ), not to mention the Chain of Command that tried to cover up the murders until Time Magazine exposed the truth.
Which allows me to address what krisolov said. The system is working?? Which system? The one that permitted a cover up for months until Time Magazine blew the whistle?
THAT system?
Nice system they got there, pal.
I will thank you to not make dishonest and asnine portrayals of my posts. You’re trying to make it look like the top guys in the military think that every single person in the military is completely without values and thus needs the core values training for that very reason. That is not true and I hope you know full well that’s not true.
And, to directly address your comments Monty, yes of course I know the difference. Do I truly believe that every single Marine in or out of uniform goes out of their way to commit such acts? I do not. Not for a moment am I saying that.
Do I believe quite firmly that the culture and training and mindset does exist that encourages that kind of behavior? Absolutely. When civillians are seen as something other than humans of value, it is very easy to kill them when killing is what you are trained to do.
I don’t see it in black and white, there is a continuum here but the painful thing is that those who keep stomping their feet and proclaiming that it’s just a few bad apples are incapable of admitting what they know deep inside to be true: The Tree Promotes The Mindset. Whether or not the apple does go bad.
I know that this is the Pit, but to me there are limits. So I will not use the language I have HEARD USED BY RETURNED MARINES, but suffice to say that you are aware that there are intensely hateful slurs used to describe Iraqi civillians yes?
Do you honestly mean to tell me that Core Values Training, at this late date, will do anything to alter that mindset ?
I just wrote a very long post below this first paragraph, carefully outlining how I found the cites and what it means that the DOD has issued this order. And I just deleted it.
No thread, no matter how passionately I feel about it, is worth my Posting priveledges. So instead, I apologize to you Monty. It was not my intention to make an asinine OR dishonest portrayal of your post.
Clearly you are right, and I am wrong. Please accept my apology for how my posts in this thread inaccurately reflected your intent.
Then perhaps you might want to ratchet back some of the venom in this thread.
The training DOES NOT include “Hey, let’s go out and kill a bunch of civilians; after all, they’re really not human anyway.” The training includes rules of engagement, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and the provisions of the Geneva Convention.
Are there some individuals in the military who go ahead and tell their subordinates that “The enemy is the enemy even if he’s civilian?” I won’t argue that there are. Such individuals as that are violating the law.
“When killing them is what you are trained to do” if you’re using civilians as the antecedent for them does not portray reality. Members of our Armed Forces are trained as I said above.
Then quit portraying it as a 100% vs 0%.
Yes, I am. And if their Chain-of-Command is made aware of that fact while they’re on Active Duty, they should find themselves no longer wearing the nifty uniform.
I think that, perhaps, if it’s done in an intelligent manner, with thorough planning, and with an emphasis on both personal responsibility and adherence to the laws governing warfare, it might be of some worth.
But right now, what I’m seeing–as I think you’re seeing too–is a slapped together bit to tell the world “We’re refreshing our troops on their responsibilities.” That’s what I was referring to when I said it’s a knee-jerk PR move. Good training requires good planning.
Cartooniverse,
Thank you very much.
I’m with you when I hear people who’ve been in the military (or pretend to have been) start spouting stuff like “Oh, yeah, we killed a bunch of {slur o’ the moment}.” The big thing, I think about having a professional military is that the military, especially in armed conflict, must behave in a professional manner. Making it personal is asinine.
Re: a news story about this “core values” training.
I don’t see how this is supposed to prove to me that the Marines have a corrupt culture.
It’s not clear to me that training = evidence of problem. Consider a different example: I have to go through some specific training related to human subjects protocols. Every PI at my institution does. It’s not optional. Does having the policy mean we’re all corrupt? Does the policy mean we’re all likely to do things that are illegal, immoral, and unjust in pursuit of research? Does the institution’s insistence on it “show an utter and complete culture of moral decay?” Well, to me it doesn’t. And I’d still say it doesn’t, even if someone higher up issued a press release ordering us all to go through it again because of a problem.
My criticism of the Marines on this is different than yours–not that this “proves” their complete corruption, but rather that it’s a bit of a PR ploy. I don’t know how the Marines feel about it, but it looks to me to be a program designed to convince a sound-bite hungry public that Something Is Being Done and The Brass Takes This Seriously.
As others have asserted in this thread, this is likely not a “Core Values” problem, nor is it going to go away with a “core values” solution. I’m not sure a slideshow is going to prevent the sort of tragedy that happened in Hadithah. The Marines aren’t idiots–they surely know that too, and I assume that they’re using this as an opportunity to enhance certain aspects of pre-deployment preparation. That’s a good thing, and it may prevent certain misunderstandings and tensions, so it’s not useless. But I remain skeptical that what happened could have been prevented by some additional amount of “Core Values” training. What would have prevented it? I don’t know; I hope some thought is going into that.
I suspect that for some vast majority of the Marines the “core values” declarations will be redundant and unnecessary Not because it’s an ineffective way to prevent someone snapping, and not because they and their fighting peers are just that corrupt, but because they are decent folk who already know right from wrong and who would work hard to avoid hurting an innocent person. Maybe they’re not 99.9% good people (as Chiarelli stated) but I’d bet my life that many of them are.
I think you would find it both heartening and uplifting to learn more about some of the men and women who have served as Marines, in Iraq and in other places around the world. Their stories may paint a different and more hopeful picture of the Marine Corps for you.
I don’t know how many returned Marines you have spoke to, but I have spoke (and continue to speak) to hundreds of recently discharged Marines coming straight from Iraq. My office is one of only TWO in the country that is responsible for assisting active duty personnel who have been injured or disabled during their military service and need benefits immediately upon their discharge. We literally see these soldiers within days of their return from Irag and will most likely continue to see them for life. I can absolfuckinglutely assure you that I have never heard them use hateful slurs to describe Iraqi civilians - NEVER. For the most part, they talk fondly of the people they have met and have a sincere compassion for them. A lot of them bring photographs home of the Iraqi people they have befriended.
Not calling you a liar, but it really, really surprises me that you have heard this and yet I never have.
There’s some evidence of harsh language among the marines:
I second this. Volunteer at your local VA Medical Center or get yourself a Marine pen pal serving in Iraq. I think you have a very unfair and biased impression of Marines and think it would do you good to really get to know some of these soldiers.
From the link provided by Sevastopol:
I’ve heard of that before; however, I have never actually heard anyone use the term haji in my presence in that meaning. It frosts me that anyone would do so around anyone. Completing the pilgrimage to Mecca is a sacrifice and a very serious undertaking as an act of faith. To insult it in the manner is beneath contempt.
Sevastopol, I am not saying it is impossible and that no soldier has ever spoken hatefully about Iraqi citizens, I am sure they are out there. I am merely stating that I have yet to hear it personally from my clients and that I find it rather surprising that Cartooniverse has heard comments so hateful that he will not state the words here in the Pit.
I have experienced the exact opposite. Almost every time a returing soldier (including my daughter’s boyfriend) mentions Iraqi citizens, it is done in a respectful if not compassionate manner. It surprises me to hear differently.