I stand by my statements, fushj00mang.
The kid is responsible for his appendicitis? Now THAT’S a neat bit of reasoning!
You seem to think that incarceration (regardless of the reason for it, or whether the person has been convicted of a crime or merely arrested) should be the equivalent of an outright death sentence. I feel quite safe in saying that most people would violently disagree.
Then you have played us all for fools. My heartfelt congratulations.
Oh for the love of Og, you sanctimonious piece of mule shit. Pray for forgiveness? “Lord, I know what I did was wrong, and so while I sit here dying of appendicitis because the medical staff here can’t be bothered to give me an even halfway competent medical exam I hope you’ll forgive me one day.”
It seems from the article that all this teen was able to do as his time came was fade into unconsciousness, but not after several liters of diseased fluid had exited his body, one way or another. Failing his own personal deathbed prayers, what would your gracious self be willing to concede if someone were willing to petition Og on his behalf?
But then there’s also the matter of you apologizing for being a stupid piece of shit. And an insensitive prick, and oblivious to facts, …
What the fuck? That is without question, the single stupidest statement I have ever read on these boards. And that’s including a metric shitload of banned trolls, socks, and general fucking idiots. Not giving someone critical medical care is killing them as surely as pulling the trigger.
It? :rolleyes:
Bolding mine.
Exactly. We are responsible for seeing to a prisoner’s basic needs. This was a 17 year old child who suffered a painful and preventable death.
I think the point is that it wasn’t just his “day to die”. He most likely wouldn’t have if the people who were there to see to his well-being did their job. A 17 year old can change quite a bit with compassion and maturity. We will never know what this person could have become.
Qadgop, I don’t know if you’re ever thanked for the job you do, so I’d like to say thank you. Your work must be frustrating and difficult but, what you do is needed very much. You should feel very good about that.
Honey
That’s what I was thinking. I must have missed the part of the criminal code where being incarcerated removes a person’s basic humanity. Of course, then again, I’m not a raging asshole like fushj00mang, so maybe I just glossed over that part.
I hope these nurses get the book thrown at them. I mean, it’s not like they were being asked to diagnose an incredibly complicated disease. Hell, I have nothing more than basic first aid training and I think I know enough to at least look for a tender spot that would indicate appendicitis.
skutir,
Thats fine, but what’s your opinion of this kid? Do you believe that he was treated wrongly, or are you here just to take a jab at me? For being a hateful, sadistic, pathetic, attention seeking piece of shit, I still have an opinion, which is (at this time) one up on you.
Lola,
Glad I haven’t let you down. Sometimes, though, being cold and callous is the most rational way of being. Kid would have recieved better medical treatment if he’d been in the outside world. Kid would have been in the outside world if not for his own behavior. It was the kids own fault.
Eonwe,
No, there is a system of courts in place for a reason. It is to provide as honorable a way of proving guilt or innocence as is possible and reasonable. And, to further that end, to provide as proper a punishment as possible if guilt is proven. So yea, if you’re sentenced to die, well, ta. If not, don’t expect any favors.
And on a broader note, what do you (all of my detractors who are rushing to condemn the nurses and doctors here) think about individuals who are killed in prison by other prisoners? Wern’t they just as assuredly ‘given a potential death sentence’ by being incarcerated with other miscreants as this kid was? Are the guards of prisoners who are murdered guilty of manslaughter? Just a thought.
Leaper,
That’s dead on. And no, I’m not being sarcastic. Now, to further that point, once a person is released from prison, having successfully completed their terms of incarceration, then I see no reason not to treat them as humans. But until then…
artemis,
No, the punk wasn’t responsable for his appendicitis. He was responsible for being in a situation where adequate medical treatment was not available for him. His actions led to his incarceration. His incarceration, combined with his illness, led to his death. Remove the incarceration, and you unbalance the equation. He might still have died, but if he did, it would have been with more dignity (something that he didn’t deserve as a criminal.)
iampunha,
What I’m going for here is if the kid was deserving of the dignity that you think he was, he’d have to show some humanity. If he’d felt bad for his actions, as opposed to simply feeling bad that he was in this situation, then yea, I’d do a little praying for him. I’m praying for his family now. Like I said in my first post in this thread, they’re the only ones who deserve any sympathy. They didn’t do anything to deserve this personal tragedy.
I’m not following you. Could you please clarify what you mean?
As for being insensitive, and on occasion oblivious, I do apologize to anyone in here who finds my insensitive and occasionally oblivious behavior to be offensive. But as far as being a stupid piece of shit, I’ll have to ask for a cite.
Q.E.D.,
Even more so than Kurdt Khobain’s ramblings?
Beyond the obvious trollish repulsiveness of this idea, what the hell do most teens contribute to society? They’re not running businesses or employing people. Maybe they volunteer a few hours a week, maybe they run the register at the Quickie Mart. Big friggin deal. So this kid screwed up. (We don’t know, btw, that he was a criminal. The article doesn’t say that he was convicted of anything. He may well have died after merely being arrested and charged. We don’t know.) We don’t know the circumstances of the incident in which his neighbor was injured. A cut with a soda can could happen a thousand different ways, we don’t have any evidence whatsoever to presume that this boy was a malicious thug whose life was nothing more than violence and lawbreaking. And even if it was, he was a kid, and he was dying, and people who had the ability to help him failed to do so.
It’s a moot question, because this boy never saw a doctor.
A nurse visited him the day he initially complained. She diagnosed a stomach virus without ever touching him. She never palpated his abdomen! She came by the next day, did another look see, again failed to touch him, and again walked away deciding that his illness was not serious without having done anything to justify such a conclusion.
That’s failure of care number one.
By the next afternoon, the boy had begun vomiting, and had to tap on the glass of his cell to get the attention of the guard supervisor. Now I’m left to wonder, why did he tap on the glass? Why didn’t he yell? Call out? Say “I need some help here” or something? Maybe because by this time, he was so weak and in such pain, he couldn’t? The supervisor declined to have a nurse or any other medical staff person come to reassess the boy.
This is failure number two.
Later that same day, Paisley was found laying in his own urine and feces. At this point the boy specifically asked for a doctor. Why did he even need to ask?
A guard called the nurse. Two hours later, the guard had to call the nurse again because she couldn’t be bothered to come around to take a look at the boy.
This is failure number three.
The nurse finally acquiesced to come after that second call. This is a different nurse, not the one who originally gave a bogus gastroenteritis diagnosis. She arrived and made the boy walk out of his cell at which point she had to see that he could barely stand and was in pain, because all of the guards, who have only the most basic first aid training, could see that. The nurse took the boy’s temperature, and presumably found it to be normal, but she did no further examination.
This is failure number four, and perhaps the most egregious. She had to know how long this had been going on, she had to have been told about the loss of bowel and bladder control and the vomiting. Still, she does so little that her actions can barely be called an assessment.
Granted, this nurse did write the paperwork to transfer the boy to the hospital, but then she went on a 45 minute break before ensuring that the boy was moved.
Failure number five.
When they finally went to the boy to get him to a doctor, he was unconscious and his appendix had finally ruptured. But they didn’t do CPR because there was no mask in the first aid kit.
The lack of the mask if failure number six.
With the lack of mask, no one had the wherewithal or common sense to improvise in some way (as if no one ever gives or gave CPR without a mask) by using a piece of fabric or some toilet paper. More interested in protecting themselves than offering help, the staff watched the boy die.
This is failure number seven.
Any idea that the kid was faking this illness should’ve ended when he was so ill that he couldn’t control his bowels and bladder. Given that these sorts of signs can indicate problems which kill quite quickly, the medical staff should have erred on the side of caution. If the nurses weren’t sure what they were dealing with, they should’ve had the boy seen by a doctor who was more capable of making a true diagnosis.
The saddest part of this, though, is that it doesn’t seem like this boy died because of incompetence as much as laziness and flat out unwillingness, on the part of the nurses and the supervisor of guards, to look at a situation which was obviously serious and obviously escalating and to act appropriately.
I picture a tombstone which reads “Here lies Omar Paisley, who died because people couldn’t be bothered to move their slack asses and do their damned jobs.”
Well…yeah, actually. That’s pretty sad, ain’t it?
So would propper medical treatment have been a favor?
I think it’s been well established that the nurse didn’t give this kid a propper examination, and whether or not she’s working in a prison, that’s negligance and she damn well ought to be facing the charges brought against her.
Don’t you see that if the government places a person in the medical care of someone who doesn’t take care of her patients properly, than she or the government is at fault here, not the kid.
Good to know we’ve got drooling morons like you “defending our liberty”. Tell me, do you shoot your gun off as much as your mouth?
“It”?! For fuck’s sake man, I sincerely home your get your ass kicked out of the service and shipped home, I don’t want shitheads like you acting in the name of the US. And if you’re not American after all, well fuck you anyway. The kid didn’t torture someone to death, he just cut someone with a piece of soda can. Assault, yes. Worthy of dying horribly for, no fucking way.
I think we’ve found the basic philosophy at play. To recap, when someone wondered why this was the kid’s fault, I replied (with hopefully obvious sarcasm):
And fushj00mang replied:
It’s a shame that fushj00mang’s philosophy seems to make absolutely no distinction for seriousness of crime, motive, innocence, or anything resembling anything other than “if they’re in prison, they must be subhuman monsters” (after all, the staff he seems to admire who treats a prisoner like this would NOT bother to make such distinctions). But then, I suppose if sweeping generalizations belong anywhere, it’s the Pit…
If it can be shown that the person or persons in authority failed to act on a credible threat to anyone’s safety or life, then yes, I for one think they ought to be brought in.
Funny, I thought that the care he didn’t recieve was, in theory at least, atypical of what was expected would be given to him. IE once you’re in prison it’s the state’s task to keep you alive. The state failed with flying colors here, and in numerous cases, as TeaElle has pointed out. We also know nothing of anything he did before this happened, nor do we know things that aren’t included in the report. For all we know this kid was an acolyte who mentored kids in his neighborhood and was wrongfully sentenced to time in prison.
Whereas of course cutting someone with a soda can is punishable by appendicitis, days of pain and suffering and death. Good to know the “cruel and unusual punishment” clause is still in effect.
I was being sarcastic. The notion that he’d have to express not only belief in a deity but petition that deity for forgiveness (or even cause you to so honor him as to recognize his gender rather than relegating him to “it” status … and that was also sarcasm) to get you to cut him any slack is ludicrous to me. It’s not like this kid walked into an orphanage with an Uzi and a blowtorch and wreacked havoc until there was naught but burning flesh.
Look within this thread. The reason people are knocking you isn’t that you use leet speak, dude.
And in all seriousness, fushj00mang, get thee to a competent medical practitioner when you get back to your native land. Cuz what you’ve been posting as adequate care isn’t. If you had stomach pains like the ones in the article, one can only hope there isn’t another practitioner who’d do as the one in the article did.
Q.E.D.,
Well, yea. Maybe I should mix in some teenage angst to bring myself up a notch ;).
TeaElle,
When I was 17, I was a member of the Sumter Police Department’s Explorer program, a voulenteer firefighter in Wedgefield, helped with the United Ministries soup kitchen/emergency shelter, worked 10-20 hours a week as a bagger at our local (now closed) Kroger, and on top of it all, kept a 3.91 GPA. Was I a prodigy, no, no I wasn’t. There were folks who did even more than I did. But what I wasn’t, nor the majority of my fellow over and underacheiving classmates, is a criminal. Cutting a person with a soda can can happen a thousand different ways? C’mon, you’re smarter than that (at least, from what I’ve read of your posts you seem to be.) It’s a soda can. The only way you can get a sharp edge off of it is by making one (and I seriously doubt that the kid would have been incarcerated for cutting someone with the mouth of a soda can, which is its only intentional sharp edge.)
In any case, I appreciate the actual argument that you put foreward. I’ll have to mull it over while I’m on duty today.
sturmhauke,
Well, I could take offense at the statement about shooting my gun off, but fortunately (or unfortunately, depends on how you view it) every time I’ve come under fire I have been unable to return it (the M4 carbine isn’t exactly known for its ability to reach out and touch someone.) Instead, we simply yell profanities in Arabic as we get shelled, or come under fire from our opponents and wait for an Apache gunship or Abrams to come out and take on the hostiles. Perhaps next time I’m in a hole, I’ll get behind our M240 and actually be able to kill something, but I do hope it’ll be a quiet day. As far as shooting off my mouth, I’ve stood in every argument I’ve been in. I have yet to see you do anything but take this one potshot. Do you have any SUBSTANCE to add?
As far as being a drooling moron? Far from it. Actually, I am being shipped home and I am being released from active duty to inactive reserve status. I learned last week (same time as my ‘82’ post) that I’ve been approved to enter the USAF’s Bootstrap program (if you don’t know the term, it means I’m going to be sent to a university or college of my choice, continue to recieve my current pay and upon graduation will be comissioned an officer in the United States Air Force.) Furthermore, my lieutenant says he’s put me in for the Joint Forces Commendation Medal.
And with that said, I’m going to go check my field equipment. I’ll be back tomorrow, same time, same place. Ta!
You know what, fushj00mang? You’ve gone and rated the very first flame I’ve ever written, in over four years here.
Reading between the lines, I’m going to go out on a limb and conclude that you are presently serving in the U. S. military. I’ll come back to that in a bit.
The eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution forbids the infliction of cruel and unusual punishments. I’d like to think that it doesn’t take a Supreme Court Justice to conclude that withholding needed medical attention from an incarcerated person constitutes a violation of that provision.
And yet you seem to be unconcerned that Omar Paisley, to all intents ans purposes, was subjected to such a violation of his constitutional right to be free of the infliction of cruel and unusual punishment. You’re not even concerned that the violation resulted in his death.
When you were inducted into military service, you swore an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic. As a demonstrable enemy of the Constitution of the United States of America, you have revealed your oath to be a lie.
Stand by for flameage:
You fucking liar. Get the fuck out of my country’s military. You are not an American fighting man; I don’t care what the patches on your uniform say, and I don’t care what is typed on your Leave and Earnings Statement, and I don’t care who’s been shooting at you. Those aren’t what makes an American fighting man. An American fighting man is someone who takes that oath to defend the Constitution, and then goes out and defends it. You are a fucking enemy of the United States Constitution, and taking money to wear the uniform and fire the weapons makes you just a mercenary. You dishonor your uniform, you dishonor the oath of service that I presume was sworn in good faith by the men and women you serve with and under, and you generally just make me sick.
For the record, I had thought that at least the catharsis of drafting the above would make me feel a bit better. It didn’t.
Because he was a human being, damn it. Nobody deserves to die like that.
OK, so this kid violated the law by attacking his neighbor with a soda can. By committing this particular crime, however, he hadn’t chosen to renounce everything about society. He certainly did not renounce his status or dignity as a human being.
As a society, we still recognize the dignity of prisoners, even down to the vilest and most hateful serial killer–this is why executions today (lethal injection in particular) are designed to be swift and relatively painless. This kid had to endure unbelievable agony for 24 hours, and die in his own filth and vomit…and you have the gall to say it’s his own fault?
The manner in which a society treats its prisoners is often a direct reflection of the society itself–a society that inflicts savage, public torture and/or execution upon prisoners is invariably a horribly barbaric one. Our current society is far from perfect–personally, I’d rather see the death penalty abolished, but that’s another thread. However, I generally take some comfort in the belief that we have evolved to the point where we don’t treat our prisoners with outright sadism or apathy.
What’s so disturbing about this particular case is that we really haven’t evolved to that point–at least, not for Omar Paisley.
I also find it very disturbing that anyone could read this story, shrug their shoulders, and say, “No big loss, he was just a piece of shit anyway.”
Should we assume, then, that you were typing while looking at yourself in a mirror when you wrote that?
I guess this’ll teach me to hit refresh just once more…
kaylasdad99,
I’m not a judge, nor am I a practicioner of law. What I am is a Staff Sergeant (and perhaps soon, an officer candidate) in the United States Air Force. A determination if this adolecent criminal was denied a fundimental and constitutionally guarenteed right is not my place, it’s for those who know the law in all its respects. I know that I am not an expert constitutional law. I never claimed to be.
How dare you attack my integrity, my oath, and my service to my Country? How dare you call me an enemy of that which I’ve served with skill, valor, and honor for going on five years now? How dare you insult my subordinates, who’ve placed their trust and lives in my hands, and whom I have (and God willing, never will) failed? How dare you insult my superiors, who’ve seen enough of my integrity, my service, and the excellence in which I perform my duties to my superiors and my Country to believe that I am worthy of a comission?
I am callious. I am brash. I am agressive. I do not consider myself ‘liberated’ in the social sense. I’m a strong believer in God. I’m a stronger believer in the law. But what I am NOT is a liar. What I am NOT is a mercenary. What I am NOT is a disgrace and what I DO NOT LACK is pride, honor, and courage. You may not agree with me. That’s fine. You may not even like me. That’s fine too. Its your right. Its a right that I and my fellow servicemen continue to secure for you on a daily basis by putting our skins inbetween you and the desolation of war. You can say whatever you want, but just remember that you have the right to insult me because I am out there, as are over a million other soldiers, sailors, Airmen, and Marines who hold more varied opinions than there are shades of grey. Go ahead. Take your potshot. As the cliche goes, I may not like what you say, but I’ll defend unto death your right to say it.