Michael Richards goes on beserk racist rant during nightclub act.

Just like every other person in the world, you and me included. Evolutionary psychology tells us that we were all born with an innate fear (and thus dislike) of “otherness”, including people who look different from ourselves. It is deeply, profoundly futile – totally against the reality of evolutionary human nature – to expect anyone to be entirely free of all hints of racist thought. As I wrote far up thread, all we can ask – and we each have a right to demand this – is that people don’t act on these thoughts. That we “repress” them, in your words.

I agree, but I’m not at all sure this is a universally bad thing. Again, as I wrote far upthread, I became an anti-racist precisely because I’d witnessed it and it repulsed me. And it repulsed me as strongly as it did because even at 8, I recognized an echo of my uncle’s racism in myself. I don’t think there can be a more powerful form of learning.

I’m with you on all counts thus far, as long as “racial animus” does not equal “racism”.

There, I think we part ways, because it does seem (and of course I may be wrong) that you feel that “racial animus” = “racism”. It may be hairsplitting to disagree with that equation, but hairsplitting is sometimes necessary. As indicated above, I hold that (to use your term) “racial animus” is innate in every single human being to one degree or another, and that it’s “instinctive” and thus immune to complete conscious control. “Racism”, on the other hand, is an intellectual belief system that is under conscious control. Thus, there’s an important distinction to be made: not all people who feel some sort of “racial animus” are racists.

Just like Chris Rock and Rev. Jackson. Don’t get me wrong, though. There’s no question that many (most?) non-blacks experience distinctly racial undertones in such situations, but the fact that many (probably not most) blacks also feel very similar apprehension should tell us all something. And that something is that there’s a significant factor involved that shouldn’t necessarily be equated to racism.

But please don’t think I’m saying there is no racism or racial animus involved! Black racial animus or even racism towards other blacks is by no means hard to believe. Hell, there’s plenty of self-loathing gays (ask Rev. Haggard) and self-loathing Jews and who knows how many other self-hating people; why not self-loathing blacks? After all, if the media and/or something else is inculcating racial animus against blacks in America, why shouldn’t many of these same social forces apply to blacks as well as whites?

I know exactly what produces my added bit of unconscious and conscious, if irrational, feeling of distaste towards blacks: hip-hop and rap. The fact that I feel the same thing towards white rappers doesn’t change the basic reality that I despise misogyny and homophobia and prideful ignorance and the glorification of violence for violence’s sake. (And I think the musical form itself is cheap and ugly, too.) I used to think black rappers didn’t realize what a horrible image they were painting of African-Americans and African-American culture, but now I’m pretty sure most know damn well what they’re doing and are doing it out of some twisted kind of pride and/or prideful arrogance. It’s a classic Langian “knot” that should have been untied a long time ago. I know perfectly well that it’s pretty much forbidden to criticize any popular art form, and that one does so at his peril. Witness the Pit thread on the subject a while back: people can be incredibly hateful and intolerant of dissenting opinions in that arena, especially when it comes to rap and hip-hop. So expect my view to be roundly condemned, even here. But I’m just telling you…

Perhaps some monks in the Himalayas can utterly control their minds to the point where unbidden, shameful thoughts and words never arise. But it’s futile to demand, or even expect, everyone else to be able to do so! Does the word ever intrude itself into my mind on occasion? Yep. Does that make me a racist or indicate “some seriously fucked-up shit”? Nope. It just indicates I’m a member of the species Homo sapiens and grew up in a culture where the word is unfortunately not uncommon enough.

Agreed. But I never said it didn’t, and as I pointed out earlier, in no way am I defending or apologizing for Richards’ outburst. It would be nice if my full context were taken into account.

What about screaming it at the top of one’s lungs repeatedly in a public venue?

Short of lynching someone, what would indicte “genuine racism”, in your eyes? I mean, if I can’t call the guy screaming “NIGGER” in my face a racist, who in the hell can I call a racist?

All the apologia that I’m reading in this thread and in other message boards is making me wonder if perhaps lots of people have “NIGGER” floating around in their heads, just waiting to leap out in a fit of anger, and that’s why people have a hard time calling Richards something other than an asshole. Perhaps people are able to see themselves doing the exact same thing that Richards did under similar circumstances, and that makes them sympathetic. No, he can’t be racist because that would mean I’m racist. And I can’t be racist!

Call a Jew a “kike” and you’re an anti-semite.

Call a gay a “fag” and you’re a homophobe.

Call a black person a “nigger” and you’re maybe an asshole or maybe just having a bad day. Maybe you have bigoted or prejudiced views…but dammit we all have those. Whatever you do, don’t let anyone tell you that you’re a racist. Just give an awkward apologize and have the right people vouch for you and America will forgive you, by and by.

I suspect I may be guilty of poor phrasing. My apologies if you felt I misrepresented your thoughts, because, as you said, we ARE essentially in agreement.

Too bad we have no reputable mind readers to settle the matter of what’s floating in people’s heads. You’d think the repeated use of “nigger” in the space of one minute, the wide range of insulting abuse, the incoherence and the hateful racially pandering innuendoes (“You know what happens to you if you interruot a white man don’t you?”) would be enough to tip people off he’s got some deeply bigoted issues.

Hell, and people say John Kerry can’t tell a joke. :: rimshot. ::

But in my and a lot of other people’s minds B does not follow A. I don’t think just because you call someone a fag, kike, or nigger, that you are a homophobe, anti-semite, or racist. When people get into confrontations with others they go for what will likely be the easiest and most hurtful to them. Following this logic the black guy in the audience that called him a cracker ass motherfucker is racist too even if he didn’t start I mean obviously the words came to mind pretty quickly, right? :rolleyes:

I haven’t read this whole thread so this is NOT a comment about apologia or racism among Dopers (or even within this conversation)- - but, with a few white people I know IRL, that is absolutely true. From what I’ve seen personally, it has a lot to do with whites who feel like failures and need someone “lower” toward whom they can feel superior - I don’t think I’ve ever heard it from someone with good self-esteem.

The good news is that this incident HAS made headlines, and wasn’t just shrugged off (on the national scale).

That’s certainly possible.

It’s also possible that some of the defenders really like the show Seinfeld, and fear that if Richards is branded/outed as a racist, they won’t be able to watch the show in good conscience, just like it’s hard to watch Baretta or early Law & Order.

How many people do you know who aren’t homophobic, anti-semitic, or racist go on tirades like that in response to a relatively minor provocation? I know of none.

It’s like a disease. Sure, just because you have a runny nose, doesn’t mean you have a cold. Just because you have diarrhea, it doesn’t mean you have inflammatory bowel disease. But some symptoms are so uncommon that when they present themselves, you can be fairly certain of the disease which causes it.

What you and others are doing is tantamount to insisting that just because a kid goes into anaphylatic shock after eating peanuts for the first time, it’s wrong to conclude that the kid probably has a peanut allergy. What exactly would you need to see in order to go out on that limb and say “dang, Richards was being a racist asshole” without following it up with some mitigating “but” or “however”?

I keep seeing these attempts to characterize, sanitize, and euphemize Richards’ conduct as being everything except the most obvious thing, and although I shouldn’t be surprised by this (glad to see some on board know why), I am surprised. It’s like watching a dancing frog and having someone say that although the frog is moving its legs in time to the the music and shimmying its shoulders better than Josephine Baker, it’s not dancing.

No, kids, the dancing frog is not dancing. It’s just having a bad day or is on drugs. Frogs stopped dancing in 1968.

And, even tho you insulted me, instead of calling you a racist, fascist, or worse, I would like to suggest that it is time for all of us to lighten up.

See? Unlike some people, I didn’t get all hot under the collar. Sticks and stones, folks…

Too right. It’s a sad day when you can’t wax lyrical about the good old days of lynching and hurl a long and vicious racial tirade at people without someone coming along and calling you a racist.

It’s political correctness gone mad and a victory for freedom-haters everywhere.

:dubious: Methinks you might want a different phrase there. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t personally know many people that will go into a tirade at a relatively minor provacation period. But I’ve seen plenty of people call someone a fag or nigger or whatever during a confrontation. They are common enough insults and if the person being called that is a homosexual or black then it is more effective at upsetting the target. One incident where someone let anger take control and reached what would most hurt the target does not make the person a racist. Is the guy who called him a cracker ass motherfucker in retort a racist? I don’t think so he just went with what he had to work with and then he or someone else latched onto his failure career which probably worked better. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Also, I saw the Today Show and Lauer was interviewing the guys that Richards’ went off on. According to the guys, there was no heckling, at least as the term is commonly understood. They reportedly came into the club late, as a large group, and were noisy settling in and getting their drink orders taken care of. They said Richards got angry because of this noise and started talking about all the blacks and Mexicans who just walked in and said something to the effect that the club was full of stupid people that night. That reportedly caused one of the guys to respond with “You’re not funny”. That’s when they said Richards barked out the the thing about “I could have you arrested, white man got power, ROAR!” (I’m taking some poetic license here). I can’t remember what supposedly happened next, but some time after that comment came the thing about the hanging. Cue the tape.

If what the guys say is true (and I’m not saying it is necessarily), then Richards really is a dick of the highest order and he deserves whatever fallout he receives, as he wasn’t even really being heckled. Provoked my ass.

“No sympathy for you”, said the sympathy Nazi.

I want it clear that I agree he is a giant asshole for what he did and he can’t really justify what he said. Bearing that in mind however I’m not ready to say based off one incident that without a doubt he is a racist although he very well might be, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps the guy who was called a nigger decided to fight back with the same kind weapons being used against him. Fighting fire with fire kind of situation. If this guy had gotten into a fight with some random white dude in some other setting and decided to call him a cracker, you’d have a case to call him racist. But not in this incident.

If Richards had called me and my friends niggers after all the other shit that came out of his mouth? Cracker probably would have been the nicest thing I would have called him.

Well that is why I said I don’t believe he is a racist but if you follow the B follows A logic that some in this thread do then they both would be without question.

I have more to add, which will come in separate posts in response to both **Ludovic ** and ambushed, but I just have to say for now…word! (That Josephone Baker bit totally cracked me up!) Word to you, too, tagos.

I haven’t read all the posts in this thread, so if this has been addressed I apologize.

What the hell does “upside down with a fork up your ass” mean? It’s obvious from the context that it’s a reference to lynching, but if I heard that expression without the context I would have no idea what it refers to.

Did that actually happen to someone? It sounds more like a cannibal reference than a lynching reference.

Bodies of lynched men where frequently mutilitated during and after the hanging: genitals lopped off as souvenirs and such. My guess is this is a “humorous” take on that grisly fact.

I know of exactly no one that I’d say is or isn’t one of the above. I don’t presume to know what’s in the hearts and minds of others. I don’t see where my own thought processes are in any way improved by believing unsubstantiable data. I find it dangerous.

Would I be more wary of someone who stated hateful things about my race? Yep. Would I presume some superiority of knowledge I can’t have and state that they were racist? Nope.

This isn’t stated as any type of accusation; it’s merely presented as my view and it has been my view for as long as I can recall. I can fondly remember first reading about Heinlein’s professional witnesses who, when asked, “what color is the house on the corner” would not say “blue” but “the part that I can see appears to be blue.” I valued that ethic long before I’d read it but it did feel good to see that someone else had considered it.

And you could be certain that you’d be wrong at times. If being wrong could cause considerable harm, is it really worth it ethically to leap to the conclusion? Where is the gain? I mean, we’re talking about denegrating someone for stereotyping others and then arguing that a stereotype we’d observed in that person is fairly certainly the truth. Weird.

I’d consider it entirely proper to state that the kid should avoid any contact with peanuts until the truth could be ascertained but I certainly wouldn’t tell him he was perfectly safe eating the wheat bread that he had with the peanuts; my assumtions could kill the kid.

I used to watch the piano playing chicken when I was a child. I thought the chicken played the piano but they were banned because the chicken wasn’t playing the piano at all. The chicken was merely repeating a timed pattern she knew would give her food. A person repeating certain verbal patterns that he’s learned will give him a desired response sure makes him seem a lot like that chicken.

Chickens stopped playing piano in the seventies where I lived. It was deemed that they were having a bad day.

If Richards was using racist remarks with racist intent then it was a horrible thing and I don’t support it. It’s jumping to a conclusion about someone based on unsubstantiated beliefs that can’t possibly be verified but appear to be the case.

Calling him a racist is jumping to a conclusion based on unsubstantiated beliefs which can’t possibly be verified but appear to be the case.

For me, I can’t condone one and accept the other. That’s just me of course. I don’t criticize those more intelligent than myself who can speak with knowledge I can never hope to have. I’m just saying I can’t do it.