Instead of trying define what “a racist” is based on examples, how about we start by defining the term as we would any term.
When I say someone is racist, I’m saying that they engage in racism. They believe in racist things. They do racist things.
Can someone be racist even if they have no problem working with blacks? I say sure, why the hell not? It’s certainly possible to get along with black people and still think you are better than them as a group. You don’t have to actively hate them in order to see them as inferior or strange or scary. These beliefs aren’t expressed under normal conditions. Sometimes they leak out in the midst of anger. And also, sometimes people aren’t even aware that they feel that way until something happens and they find themselves falling back on prejudices that are rooted in racist beliefs.
When people place so much attention on determining whether someone meets the minimal criteria necessary to be “a racist” it makes me wonder if they think racist people are a species all unto themselves. It gets tiring to see every attempt to discuss racism turn into an argument over taxonomy and semantics because rational debate is stifled and “am not, are too!” arguments take over.
Unfortunately, I think that’s because of where society is right now in talking about - or, more specifically, not talking about - racism. There’s a great deal of emphasis in culture right now that being a racist is the worst possible thing one could be - nothing is more evil or disgusting than a racist.
Which is problematic when most of us know people that we consider “good” people but who show some signs of being a racist. Or, God forbid, when we ourselves do something unconciously or semi-conciously or conciously - like lock our car doors - and realize that it was racist. Which leads us to wheedle and needle and dance because we don’t want to tar our fathers or best friends or (again, God forbid) ourselves with the “most evil thing in the world” brush.
And so, as you stated, people try to paint racists as almost a different species so as to avoid having to deal with the issue. Which is tied into this idea that the only way to deal with racists is complete ostracization - don’t vote for them, don’t watch their shows, don’t ever talk to them again, because that just rewards them. And if you have anything to do with a racist - if you voted for George Allen, or watch Seinfeld, or still hang out with that guy who told the joke about why Chinamen have buck teeth, then you must be a racist yourself. Or at least okay with racism.
I dunno. I’m mostly cataloguing here.
I do completely agree with everything you’ve posted so far, though.
Or you are one, but you’re harmless, or maybe even helpful, in a perverse kind of way.
My mom would never give change to a white panhandler. “They’re white, they should be able to take care of themselves, it’s their own fault if they’re on the street!” But she’d always fork it over if a black person asked her.
That’s racist, and patronizing, but the black man who got her dollar probably didn’t see it that way.
Here’s another example of racism. I took my daughter to pick up books and supplies for school. (She’s a monitor at a community college.) I was waiting by my car when I saw her come out of the admin building with a huge box.
She set the box down on the sidewalk, waited until she saw a black student walk by, and asked him if he’d help her with the box. She let a dozen white guys go by first. I asked her why she didn’t ask one of the white guys. She said she knew a black guy would be okay with being asked.
Pool, I think you know good and goddamned well not only that I **have ** a point, but also **what ** my point is, so perhaps you’ll pardon me if I don’t dignify the strawman you’re trying to build here.
…
On second thought…
I still won’t dignify that stuff you’re trying to pull WRT the Diallo’s murderers, but I will say this WRT to white-on-black bigotry:
::Li’l Pluck puts on flame-retardant suit::
While neither form of bigotry or hatred (white-on-black, or black-on-white) is acceptable or excusable, let’s not, as presumably intelligent people, pretend that the genesis of one is the same as the genesis of the other.
As I have stated upthread (and as I’ll probably repeat when I respond to another poster’s comments), it is my unwaverable belief that American society acculturates whites towards anti-black prejudice. Mind you, I think it does the same for other “races,” too, but certainly not to the extent that it does for whites (who are, by the way, the majority, and who hold the majority of influence and power, in this country). The thing is, though, when I encounter blacks who are racist against whites, it occurs to me that their racism could very well be the result less of acculturated racism than it is of history (a history that continues to be perpetuated, and **not ** because we blacks long for the good ole days) and a lifetime of being given the business end of the shit stick by whites.
I don’t think I need to say more about his here (since you can read my previous posts, and the previous posts of both whites and other blacks and get and extapolate from those), but if you don’t get it, just ask me, and I’ll try my best to entertain any *serious * questions.
Oh, and in just in case it’s not clear, I thought then, and I think now, that what happend to Reginald Denny was totally fucked up, and I don’t know of *any black person in his/her right mind or spirit * who thought otherwise.
I think you’re right. I also agree with your point that people seem to think it’s an all or nothing thing, as if we’re talking about someone’s HIV status instead something a lot less binary than that.
I don’t know from Richmond, but if Richmond, like other places where you’ve lived, is predominantly black, and if the victims you refer to have been victimized in their neighborhoods (I can’t look for a cite now, but I ISTR that the majority of crimes happen to people in their own neighborhoods), then it seems to me that, yeah, most of the perps would be black (as would, of course, most of the victims). Is this true WRT the instances to which you refer?
The other thing that occurs to me is this: Could you imagine yourself saying something along the lines of “I don’t give a damn if some white women gets offended if I’m vigilant about my purse in her presence, but I’m also distrustful of black guys who stand behind me”?
I completely acknowledge that your post could be worded the way that it is due to the subject at hand (so please don’t confuse my query with picking on you), but still, I think it’s a legitimate question.
To answer your question, though: I don’t know if you’re a racist, but to the degree that I think you could be, I tend to believe (thinking in terms of acculturated prejudices) that there are *gradations * of racism (likewise WRT to heterosexism/homophobia, anti-Jewish bias, anti-Muslim bias, sexism, etc.), and that not all of those gradations are necessarily solely the result of a diseased and urepentent mind (or spirit, or what have you).
I don’t know if this answers your question, but please feel free to ask for further clarfication it it doesn’t.
Which, the more I think about it, the harder it is to explain. The human brain is biologically conditioned to designate schema and attach conditions to those schema, so that when we think “apple” the image that comes to mind is a certain red fruit, even if we also recognize certain yellow and green fruits as being apples. Combine this with the biological drive to identify with people who look similar to us, and the belief that a human could be born and raised without identifying “groups” and assigning traits to those groups… it’s like a Christian trying to posit someone being born without Original Sin.
Obviously, the goal should be to try and raise a child so that those schemas of other races are as neutral as possible - i.e., “Black people have curly, black hair, and dark skin tones” - (or, failing that, as benign as possible, as stated by AuntiePam). But even then, it seems that one needs to recognize that those schemas exist. But the binary view of racism sees those schema as inherently wrong - one should never associate race or ethnicity with a category, no matter how based in our biology it is.
That seems really fucked up, and I have no idea why we deal with it that way.
(You know what’s really weird about this conversation? I have absolutely no problem discussing racism and ideas of racism with black people, but I’m terrified of what a breach of etiquette and privacy it might be if I ask you with the face which side of Route 1 he lives on. Internet discussions are so weird.)
You “guess its justified”?! Well, yeah, that would *have * to be a guess on your part since I never said that it was. In fact, what I **did ** say was this:
(bolding mine)
If you want to debate me, that’s cool. I’m definitely not the best debater out there, but I think I can hold my own without going down in (ignominous) flames. The only thing I ask is that you come to the table with honesty and that you not try to cast aspersions where they don’t rightly belong. IOW, please don’t get my shit twisted, 'cause I sure as hell would try **not ** to do the same to you.
Oh, and if your post here is any reliable indicator of either your intellect or your reading comprehension skills, perhaps I gave you too much credit to begin with, and perhaps I should retract my statement that you knew the point that I was tyring to make with my previous post.
(And, believe it or not, I’m not comfortable saying something like that on a board that I believe is populated with intelligent people–even the people I don’t always agree with. Otherwise, I wouldn’t get up off of $15 that easily just to join a message board.)
I think we are working toward something here. I analogize racism to an opportunistic infection. We’ve all been exposed to it, some people are quite able to fight it off with their immune systems, while others are quite compromised to the point that they’re very, very sick. But we all get the sniffles. Some folks go through the prescribed regimen to get better, others do nothing and rely on dumb luck to avoid it.
I’ve heard Whites say, and I similarly surmise from some reactions on this board - not just here but in other threads - that being called a racist, or engaging in racist behavior is one of the gravest insults that a White person can receive. To which I say, I’ve been called out on, and independently recognized racist, sexist, homophobic, and other jingoistic behavior (I grew up in England and happily engaged in French- and German-bashing - of the verbal sort) on my part. I know that I am basically a good person and even if I’ve encountered the vilest five representatives of any group, there’s no way humanly possible that all of the folks in the group are the same way. I’ve encountered too many pleasant and positive people of all stripes to feel that way. So I don’t start hating myself. Instead I think about what the hell I was thinking that ended up in me saying or thinking something stupid like that. It’s pretty easy for me to do this because it’s been done to me many times, and I know the sting it carries.
If I find myself unable to shake this belief or feeling about a group, then I educate myself about their experiences as much as I can. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe all people want the same basic things. We love our family and friends, we love food, we want to be comfortable, we want our offspring to benefit and have better lives, we want other people to think highly of us… that kind of stuff. Occasionally I meet people who seem to not believe these things to an extent or other, but I mark that down to individual weirdness rather than some societal belief that any group holds. I’ve met and known people from every continent (except, of course, Antarctica), various political identities, sexual identities… it seems to hold up.
To return to good ol’ MR - it seems that at some point(s), he encountered this feeling of discomfort or distrust around Black people. It doesn’t seem that he applied much effort in challenging that, or educating himself to understand what made him think that way. Perhaps he’s one of those people who doesn’t believe that people are inherently good or like him. But to me, screaming “nigger,” making allusions to lynching, and stating that you are superior because of your race definitely puts him the category of behaving like a racist. I do not think that this is a permanent state, unless one chooses to stay there. So he can become less racist, like a lot of people who are antiracist devote time and energy toward doing. But yep, he’s in the racist category to me. Now, if I really cared, I would research his life and look for evidence to support or refute this, and similarly look to what he does next. The reality is, he’s just not that relevant to me, so I probably won’t unless he comes out with a series on how racism affects people or something.
I have to admit that I don’t get the “he went for the most hurtful thing to insult somebody” explanation. That would only make sense if he was in a one-on-one situation. Presumably the word “nigger” and lynching talk would hurt others besides the group he targeted. What about people of other races who are hurt? Or Black people who were politely sitting in the crowd watching the show? If this explanation works then he, and anyone who goes here, has serious anger management issues as well. Hell, I was once in a fight with a Latino gangbanger. We talked a lot of shit to each other before (briefly) coming to blows. I don’t live in a bubble; going to school in the barrio, I was aware of racial epithets towards Latinos. But I honestly never considered hurling them at this asshole. I didn’t have a problem with him because he was Latino, I had a problem with him because he was a dick.
I guess to me the racial slur (and to be more appropriate to the situation with MR, actively denigrating a person because of their race) is the verbal equivalent of a kick in the nuts. You just don’t do it. It’s fighting dirty and it makes you less of a man (I suppose less of a woman if you’re female). Even that analogy falls apart, because if a bad guy has a gun pointed at your head, you might need to kick him in the nuts to disable him so you can survive. I don’t think hurling a racial epithet is going to disable most people, nor do I think that being heckled (if that is indeed what happened) provokes such a dramatic response.
I think you have an excellent point. I thought of two crimes committed by white guys on my way home. One was a guy who broke my mother’s door down during a crime spree a few months ago (she got away). The other was a guy who knocked on my grandmother’s door and exposed himself about 20 years ago.
Not being a fan of the show “Seinfeld”, ( I am not sure I’ve watched one episode all the way through ), I cannot say that I am an expert on what Mr. Richards can sound like at all times.
I did watch the video clip twice through on the Internet a little while ago. What I see is a man who laid himself bare, the way you do when you’re rather drunk and all of the social filters are stripped away. Those guys ( I cannot tell if it was one or two men he was yelling at, the voice saying over and over, " That was uncalled for" sounded like the same man ) pushed his buttons and he let the filters drop.
What is horrifying, and scary, is how fast that guy’s mind worked. If you listen to his tone and what he says in the second half, he’s trying to spin the outlash, even as the crowd is standing and turning against him. It seems he’s trying to make it sound very calculated, very politically thought out. The remark at the end, " Those words, those words, those words" is supposed to… make us think he used Hotbutton words in an effort to shake up the audience?
Was this supposed to be salvaged as savage performance art in the racially polarized world of L.A. ? Watch it again really carefully and listen to his tone and watch his body language as he moves back and forth on the stage.
This is a guy who let it all loose and realized it so quickly that before the clip even ends, he’s spinning it into a Lenny Bruce/Richard Pryor/ Foulmouthed Politically Daring Event.
He is who he is who he is. It’s sad, and sickening in a very distinct way, at least to me. The whole media spin, Jerry Seinfeld’s desperate attempt to handle it to protect The Franchise ( which he and his former co-stars had reason to believe would be their gravy train until they died of old age ) is predictable and understandable- and contemptible.
On the same website I used to view this tirade is an interview with a couple who say they witnessed virulent anti-Semetic tirades by Richards in a live performance on April 22. Now, if this interview had surfaced out of nowhere, it would likely be dismissed by the public at large ( and I suspect we Dopers ) as utter and complete bullshit, because lacking precedent, we never would believe that this beloved sharp-witted comedian called an audience member “You Fucking Jew”.
Now, having seen the comedy club clip with our own eyes, this interview is very believable. Is it true? Who can say, there is no video and audio proof. In the light of the proof we can see, I believe it.
The man has problems. He’s not unique in entertainment or in the population in general. But he does have problems and perhaps he will no longer have a public outlet for his rage, as I suspect folks will be slow to forgive such a truthful and painful outburst.
If we accept that both white-on-black and black-on-white bigotry and hatred are neither acceptable or excusable then of what use is discussing the genesis of either?
Mom used to say “two wrongs don’t make a right” and once that was established we were never allowed to use the genesis or relative value of one wrong or the other as a qualifier.
Would I be correct in assuming you’re qualifying the values of the wrongs by bringing up their genesis?
I think that can legitimately be debated-said person may truly not harbor any thoughts of hatred towards minorities and such. BUT…if they deliberately use such words in order to be as hurtful as possible, I think we can safely say they are a jackass of the highest caliber, and a sorry excuse for humanity.
Oh, and update-the targets of his comments are now suing. Hmmm…
?!
