Great post. I’d like to thank both you and Li’l Pluck for your responses.
I understand when you identify a problem the first thing you want to do is also identify its cause. Its genesis. That’s often the first step in fixing the problem.
But I think we place too much emphasis on whites accepting their responsibility and guilt over historical events that have occurred over the last two or three or four hundred years as if those historical events are the root cause of racism.
No way. Racism has been going on since I imagine the dawn of mankind. Let’s look at the root cause of racism sure, but let’s not confuse it with individual historic events like black slavery, massacre of Native Americans, the holocaust, etc.
Slavery was white peoples’ bad. Sorry. Slavery is the reason we’ve inherited some social problems we’re still dealing with. I get that.
But slavery is not the cause of racism. It’s an effect of racism. Didn’t the Romans take slaves of the same ethnicity as themselves? Didn’t Native Americans? Didn’t African tribes?
Too often white guilt over black slavery is confused with the genesis of racism. Whites need to accept guilt over for that because that’s the genesis of racism and once we do, racism will be solved!
But I don’t think that’s how it will work. We need to address racism yes. But we need to move beyond “whites screwed us blacks worse than we blacks have screwed the whites.” We’re never going to solve racism that way. Nor any other -ists or -isms.
No **rational, sane ** black person (or any other rational, sane person) would–or could legitimately–demand that present day whites accept responsibility for the actions (e.g., slavery) of their forbears (or, in the case of, say, relatively recent white immigrants, their racial forbears). What I believe we can demand is that present day whites acknowledge that, as a result of, not slavery (and you’re right–slavery is the result, not the cause, of racism), but the racist premise behind slavery, they have access to privilege and class status (and I can’t help but think that I’ve just pool’s radar has just gone off) that blacks do not have. (Please go back and re-read Lissa’s exemplary post if you need examples of this. I think she did a bang-up job.)
Why, for instance, do you think that some blacks (and some of our white allies) have raised the issue of slavery reparations? (And here, I’m not even going to go into the practicality/impracticality of reparaions.) Or why do you think that some blacks (and some of our white allies) continue to harp on about affirmative action? (And I’m not getting into the pros/cons of that, either.) Because, levdrakon, if whites had *just not fucked with blacks * during Reconstruction, if Jim Crow hadn’t become the law of the land (and not just the South, but also the North)–IOW, if whites had just taken a fucking mental/spiritual pill instead of developing such a hard-on for propping themselves up on wet cardboard boxes by convincing themselves and trying to drill into blacks that blacks were inferior–blacks would’ve been playing on an even field a looooooong time ago. And you know what? We wouldn’t be having this discussion today.
And though I *think * that I get the broader point that you’re aiming for with your point that “we need to move beyond ‘whites screwed us blacks more than we blacks have screwed the whites,’” the sad, heartbreaking fact, sir, is that the claim that whites have screwed blacks more than blacks have screwed whites is irrefutably true. How is it true? Simple–we blacks haven’t had enough power or influence with which to screw anyone. (Well, except maybe for ourselves, but that’s for another thread.) I mean, really, levdrakon, how many times have black people been able to prevent white folks from getting a job that you wanted–no, needed so that you could provide a better future or education for yourself or for your children? How many times have black people been able to prevent white folks from moving into a desirable neighborhood or obtaining a mortgage (post-WWII whites were readily given loans in order to move to the suburbs, and blacks who’d fought in that same war were not)? Or how many times have black people been able to prevent your parents and grandparents from voting (my own child-of-the-Jim-Crow-South mother turned 18 the same year that the Voting Rights Act was passed) or from obtaining a college education?
Can you answer these questions honestly?
My final question: How many times do we have to point this shit out–and how many people does it require to point it out–before you believe that we’re not pulling the “whites have been the beneficiaries of racism” card out of black hats like so many magicians, or conspiring to make whites feel guilty (either for shits and giggles, or because we **really ** don’t want to advance ourselves)? Shit, I’m perpetually exhausted because 'm trying to pay my bills and get my degree, so I know that I don’t have the time or energy to conspire against anybody! And neither, for that matter, do any of the blacks or whites in my circle.
Okay, my real final question: Why do you seem to have *so much * invested in believing that the balance of racism WRT to the *real world effects * of white-on-black racism and black-on-white racism is an equal one when even the most cursory of looks around you will reveal that it very clearly isn’t?
Oh, wait, there’s something else I need to address.
Yes, as you pointed out, Romans took slaves, and so, too, did African tribes. The difference, though? (And a more knowledgeable Doper is invited to correct me if I miss anything.) In the case of the Romans and the African tribes, those slaves were usually captured as the result of various wars. Furthermore (and I don’t have a cite handy at the moment, but this stuff is not so obscure that it can’t be researched without too much difficulty), the slaves that were captured by the Romans and Africans weren’t held in a lifetime of chattel slavery. They were actually allowed to move out of slavery, own property, and–gasp!–become full members of the societies that had once held them in slavery. Hell, they were even allowed in many cases to marry into the very tribes that had once held them in slavery. The bottom line? Your comparison between American chattel slavery and Roman and African slavery is a false comparison.
I don’t know whether or not you’re a capital “R” racist, but if you really want to find solutions to what ails us, then stop using what I (rightly or, perhaps, wrongly) perceive to be your need to be the scion of the oh-so-set-upon-woe-is-us-we-are-so-misunderstood-and-martyred white race as an excuse for not critically examining what life is **really ** like in the gool ole USofA not only for people who don’t look like you, but also for people who **do ** look like you, and you will, I think (I hope), begin to see see the light.
Um no you are not setting off my radar. I would be a fool to say that White people have not benefited considerably from racism, and slavery. A good question with regard to this might be do I feel guilty over the fact that it may have given me a better lifestyle? The answer is no I don’t as I have had no control over it at at an individual level. I don’t think it is fair and wish it wasn’t that way and would try and prevent it from being that way when it is in my power to do so, but it is that way and I cannot personally stop it. I feel sorry for people that don’t have it as good as me but I don’t feel guilty. Life is not fair and a lot of people don’t have as good a life as I do and I don’t have as good a life as many others. Not just in regards to racism but also say health. If a four year old gets cancer and I don’t do I feel guilty that I didn’t? No. But I do think it is important that we as a society do move forward from race being a large factor in determining your role and standing in society.
I really don’t feel like getting into reparations and affirmative action and although I can understand why many might be for them I do not support them. To me it is helping one at the cost of another and it is a two wrongs don’t make a right situation in my eyes.
So basically no matter what these young, white kids say or do with regards to emphasizing equality for all Americans this is just some false truth that they pretend to live and all deep down they think blacks ain’t shit. Didn’t someone earlier say something about observer-expectancy effect?
So for you there is no question as to whether I’m a racist or not. It’s simply a question of whether I’m a capital “R” racist or not. Whatever the hell that is.
I’ve already acknowledged our society has inherited social problems from our heritage of black slavery. But there is not a damn thing I can think of that will make up for you not looking like me. I’ve got enough personal self-esteem issues, I’m not adding “I’m not black” to the list.
Thanks… I’m sure I’m not the first to make this connection, but it makes so much sense to me. I do believe that the “immune system” is something that one must work toward improving.
Aw, thanks, man! I like your flow too, son, I’ll be looking out for you posts in the future.
Oh, and I really appreciated Lissa’s and EddyTeddyFreddy’s contributions to this thread. There’s a lot of stuff I’d love to respond to but it is Thanksgiving, and I hope y’all had a good one.
Well, you know my feelings about how racism has affected virtually everyone in society… but I’d add a “Hell Yes” to this. The feelings he has toward his daughter? Sounds kind of paternalistic (which makes sense since he’s her dad), but still. Having one or two close acquaintances in no way inoculates one from being a racist. One or two can be “exceptions.” It’s like those people who say, “I like Black people but I hate niggers” (yes, I know Chris Rock says this but he’s making a point. I’m talking about White people who pull this shit… I know exactly what they mean).
The problem here is that he is essentializing everything about the the people he has problems with to their skin color. Which is fucking stupid. Are the problems he has with these people strictly due to their Blackness, versus their selfishness, assholishness, or mouth breathing? I doubt it’s the former. I would suspect that those problems could be contained in a White person as well.
I’d have to look at the data in the area before I’d agree that crime in the area is mainly perpetrated by Blacks. Like a poster upthread mentioned, if he’s looking for examples of Blacks committing crimes, he’ll find them. He won’t notice or hear of the cases of Whites doing the same things. And how much does media play into this? If he lives in a predominantly Black community I’m not surprised.
I considered writing an op-ed piece a while ago encouraging profiling middle-class White males - considering that all of the perpetrators of school shootings (sans the one in Minnesota, I believe, on an Indian reservation), all of the villains in the corporate scandals like Tyco and Enron, and the scumbags involved in governmental corruption (Duke Cunningham, Tom DeLay, Jack Abramhoff, etc.) were middle-class White males. Absurd, yes, but that same logic hasn’t stopped some from taking the actions of a handful of Blacks, Latinos, Muslims, etc. and drawing ridiculous conclusions. (And yes, I am aware of the William Jefferson and Ford family scandals as well…)
That’s just one example of the privilege that Whites enjoy over people of color. You can be reasonably assured that no-one will ever look at you funny because you look like, or have a similar background to Tim McVeigh. But I’ll bet every high-profile Black man married to a White woman winced after the Simpson-Goldman murders.
And pool, it takes more than just saying “racism sucks” IMO to be an antiracist. Not to say that that’s not a bad start. (And yes, I know you are not simply discussing those who say “racism sucks” but those who are working on it, educating others and themselves. They’re on the right track, and I gotta tell ya, if you give up on antiracist work because some people aren’t impressed, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.)
levdrakon, your post reminded me of one of my very first drag-out, knock-down debates on the Dope about Wachovia apologizing for having ties to slavery. I actually think that Whites in the aggregate have so infrequently acknowledged, and God forbid, apologized for the actions of their forefathers, that a sincere, unrequested, out-of-the-blue apology, an acknowledgment that White racism has fueled a lot of hatred against Whites as well - and nothing more - would go a long freakin’ way in improving race relations in this nation. I agree it isn’t nearly enough. But I’d like to see White America/ns take these steps before we start deciding what’s effective, and what isn’t.
I doubt it will ever happen, though. Even with a policy effort that essentially attempted to say exactly that - affirmative action - was significantly curbed after Bakke, Hopwood, and now Grutter. As limited as race-based affirmative action is, people are still trying to eliminate it, despite the fact that it is only supported when it adds a compelling educational interest - essentially, when having people of color at a predominantly White college would help those White students understand diversity and enhance their education. Not because of the lack of intergenerational advantage, the horrors of Jim Crow, and so forth.
I heard some jackass complain that there’s nothing wrong with the College Republicans at Boston University having a Caucasian scholarship, “because there’s United Negro College Fund scholarships.” Considering that I, a Black man, couldn’t apply for a UNCF scholarship because I did not attend a UNCF-affiliated school - and a White student who applied to Morehouse or Prairie View A&M could - I thought of how often the “reverse racism” situations that people draw up are often effigies stuffed with dried wheat.
Are you not following the discussion? Do you have a comprehension problem to go along with your self-esteem issues?
Let’s repeat for the class: all humans are racists. It’s an inherent part of growing up. Biology tells us to love those like us, and fear those different; society helps mold what is “like us” and what is “different”. There is no person out there who has managed to break free of that. Christ, one of my best friends growing up was black, my regular babysitter was black, another of my friends was mulatto, I went to a majority-minority high school, and I was so color-blind that I was shocked at the age of 12 to find out that my Vietnamese friend Aric’s blond, blue-eyed Swedish-American parents had adopted him. And I still get a deep panic to lock my car doors when I see a homeless black man walking near me.
The difference is, as EddyTeddyFreddy and Hippy Hollow and Li’l Pluck and you with the face and other have been talking about is how we react to those situations in our head, and how we deal with that. It’s not binary. It’s not that we are either Martin Luther King or Bull Connors, and we must choose sides. There are gradiations. At some point at the edge of Li’l Pluck’s scale, you flip from little-r racist to big-R racist. That’s her* scale, and that’s cool.
You seem to still be dealing with it as if the scale is 0 and 1; you’re either in 0 and not racist, or you’re at 1 and a bigot. And that’s not an honest or helpfull way to look at it.
*It is “her”, right? Now I’m paranoid. I need to start taking goddamned notes.
Perhaps the option to place a small genitalia-signifying icon under our member name is in the offing?
The idea of a sliding scale is one I agree with. It appears to be universal. I’m white, the wife is white, the kids are South Korean. My second cousins are white and black. My kids- BOTH of them- apparently have racist feelings when it comes to blacks. They are learning it elsewhere, for when a remark was passed in my range of hearing, I became unglued.
I don’t mean to hijack totally and perhaps should start another thread about this. In fact, I think I will.
Has anyone pointed out that his Letterman apology was bullshit because during the course of it, he didn’t give one excuse for it, but three? One, he was doing a character (total bullshit), two, he was doing a Lenny Bruce style commentary (worse bullshit) and three, he was mad and went into a rage. Which one was it?
You have no idea how much I wish I could retract the post that you quoted, if only because I think that the tiny bit of facetiousness that I lent to it is making you (and could make others) misunderstand me. I do, however, stand by the spirit of what I wrote in that post, and that is this:
When I used “blacks ain’t shit,” I was actually thinking of several variations along those lines, ranging from, say, “Li’l Pluck is black, so he must have grown up poor, fatherless, and in the ghetto, so it’s understandable if he’s not on par with (white, middle class) me in terms of intelligence, character, morals, whatever, etc.” all the way up to, yes, “blacks ain’t shit,” with variations in between those two.
In other words, at a minimum, I think, there are lots of decent whites who, though they say the right things (and they say them because they really believe in them), can make all kinds of **seemingly ** harmless assumptions about me based purely on the fact that I’m black.
(You’ll probably want examples of what I mean here–understandable–so here’s just one. I have an accent which most people easily–and correctly–discern to be Southern, but it’s usually not molasses thick, and no one’s ever had a problem understanding me. Well, one day about 15 years ago, a white dude and I were in an elevator in the building where I worked. He asked me the time, and I told him, and he thanked me and remarked that I “speak very well.” :eek: All things considered, there really was only one way for me to take that. And no, I didn’t ask him for clarification, because I assure you, no good would’ve come of it. If you want more, ask.)
Does this clarification convince you that I’m not saying that every white person is bucking for the position of Grand Wizard? If it doesn’t, I honestly don’t know what else to tell you.
Happens to Africans too. “You speak English very well!” Don’t they realize that Africa was largely colonized by … English-speaking people? What languages do people think are spoken in African cities?
Of course, it may not be entirely race-based - I got a bit of that in England, with my foreign Canadian accent. But it didn’t happen nearly so frequently, nor so patronizing.
I can’t tell you what this is any better than **John Corrado ** has in his excellent post (#346).
(And high-five, or fist bump, or whatever the kids do these days to you, John Corrado. You totally took the words from my mouth! And, oh, I’m a “she” only on the occasional Saturday night–I prefer “lady” over “woman”;* Sunday-Friday, I’m totally a dude.)
I’m not sure what to make of this, as I don’t recall saying that you claiming otherwise WRT to social problems and slavery. What *really * got in my craw about your post was that you claimed that blacks have caused, via black racism, *as much trouble for whites * as white racism has caused for blacks, when that is, any way you slice and dice it, demonstrably not true. And, for me, taking what you said to its logical conclusion means that whites don’t really have to take responsibility for the ways in which they, either knowingly or unknowingly, via their actions (or, as is many times the case, inaction) perpetuate the notion of white racial hegemony and superiority. In other words, you were arguing tu quoque, and I didn’t think it was a valid way of making your point, which was, as near as I could reckon, that black racism is bad, too. Yeah, and the sky is blue, and water is wet, etc., etc.
And in case it’s not clear, I don’t want you or any white person to do anything that will “make up” for me not looking like you. I’ve been told that I’m a nice-looking dude , and despite the shit that blacks get for being black, I actually dig being black, and I’ve never seriously wanted to be non-black. (Though I’ve often thought it would be interesting to be white for a day so that I could move through the world more-or-less anonymously, or at the very least not have people make *negative * assumptions about my character, intelligence, and morals due to the color of my skin. That would be pretty cool, I think.)
So, what *would * I like for you to do? I think you already know what I’d like for you to do. How about confronting and challenging racism wherever and whenever you see it–whether it’s in yourself, in your friends, in your family, at your job, or wherever. What does this look like? Well, racism can be very overt, but it is more often than not quite covert. Most (small “R” racist) people don’t go around screaming like banshees that they don’t dig “niggers,” but they *do * find ways of keeping as much of their world as possible as black-free as possible. For instance, who are your friends? And by “friends,” I don’t mean only people from work with whom you might hang out after a day at the office. I mean “friends,” as in people outside of your job with whom you actually have emotional relationships. What are the racial demographics of your neighborhood? Or of the places where you hang out? Or of your religious institution, if you are religiously/spiritually/whatever inclined? Or those of your friends and family? *Why * are the demographics the way that they are?
Ask yourself those questions, and if you find that, in one of the most ethnically diverse countries in the world, you’re living a segregated life, then do something about it, 'cause, trust me, it ain’t cool.
*It’s a gay thing, so I’m not sure if you’d understand.
I don’t know why, but your use of “son” here totally cracked me up!
And I think your response to **Wee Bairn’s ** question is dead-on. (Even though he kinda confused me. In his first post, he seemed to say that his friend had a hard-on against blacks in general, then in his second post, he seemed to be saying this applied only to blacks in his friend’s neighborhood, so I was, like, “Umm, okay, which is it?” Not, of course, that painting all of the blacks in his own neighborhood with a broad brush would be any more acceptable than painting ALL blacks with the same broad brush. But yeah, man…word!)
Oh, please, pleeeeeease do this! And let me know if you find a mainstream entity that’s brave enough to print it. Oh, and then move out of town.
Whether or not the black guy has personal experience with lynchings, or whether or not the Jewish teenagers have personal experience with the Holocaust, I’d be willing to bet that they do, indeed, on some level, feel the pain of those occurrences. A more knowledgeable Doper can correct me, but I believe that this has to do with transgressive memory.
Basically, a people’s history (the good and the bad) is passed down from generation to generation (grandparent might talk about their life and times, or “Jet Magazine” might run a story of poor Emmet Till, along with the photograph of him in his open casket, or however else this is done), and later generations, depending on how far removed the are from the past (and I think, perhaps, on what it is about the present that reminds of their group’s past experiences), do feel something.
I’m sure I didn’t do the best job of explaining this, but I hope it helps to get you to what I’m saying.
Wait. Let’s try it this way. When I was growing up, I was always traveling back-and-forth between Philly and South Carolina, and so I spent a great deal of time with my grandparents and great-aunts and uncles, all of whom were rural Southerners. These people, while certainly not perfect, were overall the most beautiful, dignified, gentle people I’ve ever had the joy of knowing, and when I compare my experiences with them with the reality of the Jim Crow that they (and my mother and her siblings, too) had to endure, it makes me angry. Similarly, too, with slavery. I’ve recently read some slave narratives, and while I’m…::counting:: …something like the fifth or sixth generation of my family to not be held in slavery, I think about what those slaves endured and, especially when considered with the reality of a white racism that *to this day * refuses to die, slavery doesn’t seem all that long ago, and it pisses me off.
Oh, my goodness gracious, I do declare! I am so sorry–to you both. :smack: Y’know, some time ago I was reading one of the other threads (I don’t remember the subject), and one of you made some kind of reference to the other (a reference which, to my mind, one wouldn’t likely be able to make without having knowledge of the person apart from this board), and I recall thinking to myself, “Oh, do they know each other, or something?” :smack:
Well, I tend to enjoy the posts from **both ** of you.
You mean if all it took for him to get violent was a simple heckling? Oh, yeah, I’m totally with you.
I clarified that only because I believe that most people (everyone?) have the potential to be violent, but that this manifests itself only under particular circumstances. For instance, I **know ** that I have violent impulses, but I also know that it takes quite a bit in order for me to actually act violently (basically, it begins with someone hitting me, or with someone hitting someone else who is defenseless, as it probably is for most people). But yeah, if all it takes for you to hit someone is them heckling you, or some other vocal, non-physical impetus, you have, at the very least, anger management issues. Believe me, I should know, 'cause I’ve got a few of those mofo’s in my family. And, yep, I tend to avoid them more-or-less like the plague.
and, for me personally, it was clear that the ‘cracker ass mother fucker’ came a substantial time after all the other shit. So, yea, while it’d been nice if all of those who were called out had taken the high road and not thrown back, I will cut them slack.
Yeah, the genitalia thing sounds like a good idea.
I’d be really interested in knowing exactly what it was that your kids said. Just sayin’–not asking you to share something that could be uncomfortable for you. Then again, maybe it’s in the thread you started, which I’m definitely going to check out–just as soon as these folks at work leave me alone.
P.S.: I think it was you who mentioned (in another thread, I think) growing up in Frank Rizzo’s Philly. I was younger than 10-years-old when he was mayor, but I later learned enough about him that, when I’d heard on the radio that he’d died, I didn’t shed any tears. And, if I recall correctly, there were actually BLACK folks lined up to pay their respects outside of (IIRC) Ss. Peter and Paul. Wowww. Then again, maybe they really wanted to make *sure * that he was dead.
I would be a fool to say that White people have not benefited considerably from racism, and slavery. A good question with regard to this might be do I feel guilty over the fact that it may have given me a better lifestyle? The answer is no I don’t as I have had no control over it at at an individual level. I don’t think it is fair and wish it wasn’t that way and would try and prevent it from being that way when it is in my power to do so, but it is that way and I cannot personally stop it. I feel sorry for people that don’t have it as good as me but I don’t feel guilty. Life is not fair and a lot of people don’t have as good a life as I do and I don’t have as good a life as many others. Not just in regards to racism but also say health. If a four year old gets cancer and I don’t do I feel guilty that I didn’t? No. But I do think it is important that we as a society do move forward from race being a large factor in determining your role and standing in society.
