Michigan vs. Ohio state.

The BBQ Pit
201

[QUOTE=Ogre]
…If we’re going to play the “if” game, Florida was one bad ref call from being undefeated this year. No way that was a fumble in the Auburn game. Leak’s arm was moving forward.
[/QUOTE]

Oh BULLSHIT! Leak pump-faked once, pump-faked a second time and was in the process of tucking the ball to take a sack when the Auburn linebacker knocked the ball loose.
Look at some replays. If the replay is a little fast for you, check out the front sports page of the next day’s Tampa Tribune. It features a remarkably timed still photo…The ball is in Leak’s hand, about belt high with the nose pointed toward the ground. The diving Auburn player’s extended hand is about six inches away from making contact and knocking the ball loose.
Ever seen anyone throw a forward pass with their hand belt high and the nose of the ball pointed down?

There was a reason it only took 30 seconds for the guys in the replay booth to confirm the call on the field, and that’s because it was an obvious fumble.

Ogre, you’re the only person other than Lee Corso and some Gator fans that I’ve heard question that call. A newspaper, Florida Today, ran an on-line reader’s poll posing the question: “Good call or bad call?” Even in Central Florida where the readership is probably 90% Gator fans, the poll was 62% Good Call, 38% Bad Call.

202

Way to miss the point, ya freaking Barner. :slight_smile:

Even if I’m wrong (which I’m not. I saw the play at least two dozen times from all available angles and speeds,) it doesn’t change my point about Florida being a whisker away from an undefeated season, which is what a lot of Michigan fans seem to like to carp about. Ifs and buts, and all that. That’s just the way the game goes. UM lost. They had the chance. 3 points or 53, it hardly matters now.

203

[QUOTE=Ogre]
Way to miss the point, ya freaking Barner. :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I didn’t miss the point. I was merely pointing out your obvious mistake. :stuck_out_tongue:

'Bammer got a coach yet?

204

Well, I’ve heard that DeMeco and Shaun have said that “they definitely know who has been hired.” Assuming that’s not complete horseshit, that tells me that we may be hiring from the NFL again. Speculation is centering on Nick Saban. I hope not, frankly. I wanted Paul Johnson.

Actually, scratch that. I wanted us not to give Shula the shaft, but what’s done is done, I suppose.

205

Well now I don’t know who to root for. I find that even in situations where an Ohio State loss would be detrimental to my best interests as a Michigan fan, it’s nearly impossible to actually cheer them on. Now I have to choose between them and an SEC representative. I’ll probably end up rooting for the Gators to earn a heartbreaking, last-second win.

Either way, it’s way better than an Ohio State-USC Nat’l Championship Game. I’ll take great delight in being there to see us dispatch of Pete Carroll and his overrated squad. Did you see the look on his face after that interception last night? Ahh, schadenfreude.

Notre Dame doesn’t deserve a spot in a BCS game, IMO. They didn’t beat a single quality opponent this season and got destroyed in their two important games. Damn that rule that prohibits more than two teams from one conference from playing in the BCS.

206

[QUOTE=Team of Scientists]
Well now I don’t know who to root for. I find that even in situations where an Ohio State loss would be detrimental to my best interests as a Michigan fan, it’s nearly impossible to actually cheer them on. Now I have to choose between them and an SEC representative. I’ll probably end up rooting for the Gators to earn a heartbreaking, last-second win.
[/quote]

I know what you mean. It’s gonna’ be hard for me to pull for the Wallow-Gaters and Urban Crier. Kinda’ like when I watch Alabama play Tennessee and I’m thinkin’: “Now how can I get both of these mofos to lose?” I usually end up pulling for the visiting team so all the fans go home mad, but that won’t work in a bowl game.

They don’t deserve a BCS bowl, but as long as they’ve got such a big TV audience, they’re gonna have a spot. It’s all about the $$$$.

207

Not even gonna be close. OSU 37, Fla 20

208

[QUOTE=SenorBeef]
Not even gonna be close. OSU 37, Fla 20
[/QUOTE]

Got a crystal ball, do ya? Post some stock tips for those of us less fortunate.

Last time I heard “It won’t be close” about a National Championship game was back in '02, when Ohio State wasn’t supposed to have a chance against Miami.

209

[QUOTE=BobLibDem]
Actually, there’s something to this. I’m a Michigan Stater but I’d rather see the hated Wolverines go than the Gators. To me, the Big Ten is the undisputed king of all conferences and SEC stands for Schedule Easy Competition. At least Michigan’s foes were all 1-A teams, unlike Florida’s patsy, Western Carolina. Many of the SEC teams play inferior non-conference games. Michigan at least pasted the crap out of Notre Dame in South Bend and played the number one team within three points at their stadium the day after the death of their most legendary coach.
[/QUOTE]

The way I see this is simple. If Ohio State and Michigan both win then you are correct. If Florida and USC both win then you are wrong. If it’s a split, then we really don’t know. Anyway about it, there should be a 4 or 8 team playoff for the National Championship. I am a Gator fan, and I even think Boise State gets a raw deal. Florida lost a lot of players in the last few weeks to injuries, but I think that they can still give OSU a game. I’m just hoping a month or so is enough time to heal up some of their secondary.

210

[QUOTE=ShibbOleth]
The way I see this is simple. If Ohio State and Michigan both win then you are correct. If Florida and USC both win then you are wrong. If it’s a split, then we really don’t know. Anyway about it, there should be a 4 or 8 team playoff for the National Championship. I am a Gator fan, and I even think Boise State gets a raw deal. Florida lost a lot of players in the last few weeks to injuries, but I think that they can still give OSU a game. I’m just hoping a month or so is enough time to heal up some of their secondary.
[/QUOTE]

I heartily endorse the idea of a playoff. Both Michigan and Florida make good arguments for being there this year, though I am biased toward my Big Ten brethren. An 8 team playoff would be my ideal. We could have the first round say on Dec 16-17, leaving 4 teams to play on for the title. The 4 first round losers could go to another bowl game. The semis could be Christmas weekend and then have a final the week after new years. I’m much rather hear complaints that the #9 team didn’t get its shot than the #3 team.

211

[QUOTE=duffer]
OSU is ranked #1, UM is ranked #2. Forget any nostalgia, sympathy, etc about a previous coach dying. We’re talking about the teams on the field this year. The #2 teams goes on the road to the Horseshoe and loses to the #1 team by 3 points.

The home team in most cases is spotted 3 points right out of the gate. Granted, the betting line shouldn’t be a factor in determining a national champion, but it’s something to think about. Comparing teams, if OSU is the undisputed #1 team, the team that loses by 3 in their stadium should get a little recognition.

[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen this argument elsewhere, that Michigan lost by three at OSU, and therefore this proves something. Two facts blow this away:

1 - OSU coach Jim Tressel is 2-1 on the road at Michigan as well;
2 - Playing at the Horseshoe last year didn’t bother Texas, which had never done it before and took a much longer road trip to do it. Michigan, by contrast, plays there every other year.

The truth is that OSU’s program has been dominant over Michigan for years now, and those who follow OSU closely (like me) can trace the difference to Tressel’s arrival. For the first few years when he got there he took Buckeye teams with only slightly-above-average talent and consistently beat Michigan. Lately, as his star has grown, he’s taken very talented OSU teams and beaten even better Michigan teams than he played a few years ago. Any way you slice it, Tressel is a great coach, and he’s got Lloyd Carr’s number. After playing MU four times he had already beaten them more than John Cooper had in a decade with superior talent. In Columbus they say “In Tressel We Trust” for a reason. He’s earned it.

212

Ok, he’s a great coach. But he still looks like an accountant. That will never change.

:wink:

213

[QUOTE=Lizard]
I’ve seen this argument elsewhere, that Michigan lost by three at OSU, and therefore this proves something. Two facts blow this away:

1 - OSU coach Jim Tressel is 2-1 on the road at Michigan as well;
2 - Playing at the Horseshoe last year didn’t bother Texas, which had never done it before and took a much longer road trip to do it. Michigan, by contrast, plays there every other year.
[/QUOTE]
Dammit, I wasn’t gonna say anything at all, but you had to call us “MU” again. Jesus.

Those facts don’t even remotely blow that argument away. Simply stating that Tressel has won twice in Michigan Stadium doesn’t mean that it’s just as easy as a home game for him. You think the Michigan players are better adjusted to playing in Columbus because maybe half of them have done it once or twice before? Please.

Tressel’s “domination” of Carr isn’t even relevant to the argument. In fact, I think this year’s Ohio State team is probably the best one he’s had yet (definitely better than that 2002 fluke), and Carr came very close to beating them on their own turf. No, he couldn’t come up with the win, but he did come close enough to wonder whether it might be a different story on a neutral site.

Florida wouldn’t have even sniffed #2 if USC had won on Saturday. The fact remains: the voters simply didn’t want to see a rematch.

I’ll concede that Florida is very deserving of a shot at the title, but I won’t concede that they are any more deserving than Michigan, nor that Michigan did not get screwed by the voters.

214

I think Lloyd Carr made a very good point and that is if USC had not been beaten, then the voters would not have moved Florida ahead of Michigan. When the voters rank the teams not based on what they feel their worth is but on what matchup they’d rather see, then they’ve compromised the integrity of the poll.

As Lizard says, Tressel is a very good coach. Maybe even the best in the nation right now. His record vs U-M says a lot. I only hope his protege Mark Dantonio does as well at Michigan State.

215

[QUOTE=Team of Scientists]

Tressel’s “domination” of Carr isn’t even relevant to the argument. In fact, I think this year’s Ohio State team is probably the best one he’s had yet (definitely better than that 2002 fluke), and Carr came very close to beating them on their own turf. No, he couldn’t come up with the win, but he did come close enough to wonder whether it might be a different story on a neutral site.

[/QUOTE]

They did not come close to beating Ohio State. They had a lead in the first quarter, but beyond that, the score was close. OSU was never in danger of losing.

216

[QUOTE=Team of Scientists]

Those facts don’t even remotely blow that argument away. Simply stating that Tressel has won twice in Michigan Stadium doesn’t mean that it’s just as easy as a home game for him. You think the Michigan players are better adjusted to playing in Columbus because maybe half of them have done it once or twice before? Please.

Tressel’s “domination” of Carr isn’t even relevant to the argument. In fact, I think this year’s Ohio State team is probably the best one he’s had yet (definitely better than that 2002 fluke), and Carr came very close to beating them on their own turf. No, he couldn’t come up with the win, but he did come close enough to wonder whether it might be a different story on a neutral site.

[/QUOTE]

As someone who lived through the Cooper-getting-spanked-by-UM-to-ruin-yet-another-good-season years, I can’t tell you how much pleasure I derive from seeing UM fans defend Lloyd.

217

Is anyone else familiar with the Master’s Survey poll? (www.mcspoll.com) ? The voters are 17 retired college football coaches that are either in the Hall of Fame or are on track to be elected to it.

I like this idea better than having active coaches vote. It’s been said that during the season, some coaches turn their ballots over to equipment managers or other employees because they don’t have time to evaluate teams.

I heard a radio interview with Pat Dye about this poll and apparently the retired guys have time to pay attention to what they are doing and take the poll seriously.
He said they hold a weekly teleconference and compare notes about teams in different parts of the country and try to come up with an honest ranking.

FWIW, Michigan stayed at #2 in the Master’s Survey.

218

[QUOTE=ShibbOleth]
They did not come close to beating Ohio State. They had a lead in the first quarter, but beyond that, the score was close. OSU was never in danger of losing.
[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ. U-M had OSU stopped on third and long while down by 4 in the 4th quarter. But the Michigan defender made helmet to helmet contact on the OSU QB and that gave them a first down and eventual touchdown. Take away that penalty and Michigan has the ball with a chance to take the lead in the 4th quarter.

219

But if we’re playing what-ifs, take away self-inflicted turnovers that weren’t the result of anything Michigan did like those snap fumbles, and some BS penalties, and the game isn’t even close.

The game wasn’t as close as the score indicates. Michigan really did not threaten to win at any point in the second half.

220

[QUOTE=Team of Scientists]
Dammit, I wasn’t gonna say anything at all, but you had to call us “MU” again. Jesus.

Those facts don’t even remotely blow that argument away. Simply stating that Tressel has won twice in Michigan Stadium doesn’t mean that it’s just as easy as a home game for him. You think the Michigan players are better adjusted to playing in Columbus because maybe half of them have done it once or twice before? Please.

Tressel’s “domination” of Carr isn’t even relevant to the argument. In fact, I think this year’s Ohio State team is probably the best one he’s had yet (definitely better than that 2002 fluke), and Carr came very close to beating them on their own turf. No, he couldn’t come up with the win, but he did come close enough to wonder whether it might be a different story on a neutral site.
[/QUOTE]

Neither home nor away games in the OSU-MU rivalry are “easy” for either team. The point is that Tressel has taken his team into Michigan’s HUGE stadium (I’ve been there) and won, something Carr hasn’t done at OSU. Carr’s only win against Tressel was at Michigan. Yes, OSU has a home-field advantage. But Michigan Stadium actually seats more people than Ohio Stadium does. Carr should have just as big an advantage, but it doesn’t seem to have helped him any. Ergo, it’s reasonable to assume the difference is either in the players themselves or in the coaching they receive. I vote for the latter, because both teams routinely produce great players.

Agreed that this is probably the best team Tressel has produced at OSU, but here’s the important point: this year’s Michigan team was the best Carr has produced since Tressel arrived. By Carr’s own admission, he coached with the OSU game in mind all year, but he still lost.

As to come “coming close” to beating OSU, I’ll echo what others have said, which is “not hardly.” Michigan put up a spirited fight in the second half, but they trailed the whole way after the first quarter. And they wouldn’t have needed such a rally if they hadn’t been thoroughly outplayed in the first half. Both teams played with a level of intensity at times that is almost impossible to sustain for an entire game. OSU did it in the first half, Michigan in the second. If we’re just evaluating total effort expended, than sure, Michigan certainly played as hard as OSU did. But football is a game of strategy as much as anything, and while lucky breaks are possible, they didn’t decide the outdome in that game. OSU got a key penalty that kept a drive alive, but MU got at least one such penalty themselves, along with the bad snaps they recovered. OSU didn’t have turnovers like those all season long before that game!

I can understand the bitterness of MU fans, seeing an undefeated season going down the tubes. But like howye said, MU is just getting a taste of the medicine they gave OSU throughout the 1990s.