DSeid, I didn’t post anything about the merits of the term microaggression. Indeed, I explicitly said, “It may well be bad marketing, or a silly concept, or whatever.” My post merely answered Shagnasty’s semantic question and implied argument that “aggression” doesn’t make semantic sense in this context.
You’ve read into that all kinds of extraneous stuff, presumably because you weren’t reading closely. It happens.
Re-read what you wrote explaining why it is odd to have a problem with what the term implies. Bolding mine.
The presence of victimhood and of negligence by the labelled aggressor are implicitly accepted, in use of the term and in your defense of its “semantic sense”.
My reading comprehension is just fine thank you for the concern.
You think I’m accepting those characterizations only because you didn’t and don’t understand the context or meaning of my post. **Shagnasty’s **point was that, even assuming for the sake of argument that these kinds of well-intentioned but putatively damaging speech acts are something we ought to be concerned about, it doesn’t make sense to call them “aggressions” because they lack the intent to harm anyone. My point was that if you take those premises as true for the sake of argument–that this is something that damages people but is not intentionally damaging–as **Shagnasty **was doing, then the language is just fine semantically.
In your haste to quarrel with someone over whether microaggressions do in fact damage someone for no reasonable purpose or do in fact have victims, you’ve decided to try to argue with me, even though that’s not at all what my post was about.
I have a big problem about having to know the intent of someone before labeling their actions as a microaggression.
Let’s go back to my first example. Jeni the graduate student routinely poking fun at monstro, her black colleague, along racial lines.
Did Jeni intend harm? Did she know that when monstro would drive home after a long day in the lab, she’d have tears in her eyes over something she’d said? Well, no. Jeni might have been a lot of things, but malicious she wasn’t. She poked fun at everyone. Poking fun at people was her way of expressing friendship. It is not unlike how some guys may engage their pals in the locker room, or how black folks may play dozens on the front stoop.
And maybe monstro would have found Jeni’s jokes funny if they had occurred in a different milieu. Like, let’s say, in Juno, Alaska instead of Newark, NJ. And maybe monstro would have laughed if the jokes had come from a white person who was respectful of black culture and familiar with black people, instead of someone who’d never interacted with black people before she moved to NJ. None of this means that monstro was hypersensitive, though.
DSeid, you didn’t have a problem labeling Jeni’s behavior as an “aggression” at the beginning of the thread. Not once did you ask me if I knew what her motivations were. You just assumed they were nefarious. As the so-called “victim”, I know her motives were innocent enough. And yet, she was still guilty of “microaggression” against me. Jeni made my graduate school experience somewhat harder for me than it would otherwise have been, if I hadn’t expended so much energy being a good sport all the time. Seriously, when I hear about black kids dropping out of college and grad school, sometimes I wonder if it’s the social tap-dancing that wears them out more than the schoolwork.
You mean Jenni who you stated said
And of whom I commented was NOT the sort of thing we were talking about:
No nothing subtle about saying be grateful your people were rescued from Africa and brought into slavery. Yes, your “papercuts” provided a better word to use.
Ah but I am just playing “a game” so who the fuck cares …
But a lot of people think this is harmless, non-aggressive, and “all in good fun”. The same as a well-placed “yo mama joke”.
The problem with only labeling the obvious insults as “aggressions” is that you’re ignoring all the stuff that still hurts, but only in aggregate. A little bit of Jenni’s joshing around wouldn’t have hurt me at all. I would have found it hilarious, no doubt. But because it happened on a daily basis, it wore me down. Because it occurred in conjunction with Newark, NJ slum life, it hurt even more.
I don’t see you really trying to understand what we’re saying. I see you playing “gotcha”…like someone has personally accused you of doing something wrong.
It always seems like when we have threads like this, I’m always comfortable with self-disclosure, freely admitting the times I’ve done or said something racist or clueless or “microaggressiony”. While dudes like Shagnasty and you seem to think it is your job to defend your innocence. And the way ya’ll are doing it in this thread is by creating the arbitrary criterion of malicious intent. As long as someone thinks of themselves as a nice guy, they don’t have to think of themselves as being guilty of anything. The problem is all on the “victim” and the chips on their shoulders.
Well, I just don’t understand this at all. Nice people aren’t a new thing. People always think they are nice and that their intentions are good. There were nice people who defended the Jim Crow laws of the 1940s and 1950s. They are still alive and they are still nice people. When my father was turned away from a rental property back in the 1960s on the basis of his race, the woman who turned him away was as sweet as sugar. She didn’t even call him a nigger; she called him “colored”–which was a respectable term back in those days. But the action of turning him away was still quite aggressive. Her being polite and not meaning any harm doesn’t take away the sting of what happened to him.
I don’t go around calling stupid incidents “microaggressions”. I’m too concrete-minded to use a term like that. But the concept has an opportunity to be helpful. If anything, it should at least allow people to understand why not everyone reacts the same way to the same stimuli. If even this kind of basic empathy is not possible among the somewhat intelligent people of this message board, then there’s no hope we’ll ever be able to fix the more serious problems in our society.
I don’t think that anyone is saying that it doesn’t hurt , or that any behavior is OK as long as there isn’t any malicious intent. The issue is that “aggressive/aggressive” as commonly used in English do make reference to a person’s intent. In fact, I can’t think of any instance other than “microaggression” where a person can be unintentionally aggressive . If my hand impacts your face because I slapped you , I have been aggressive. If the same impact happens because I tripped and my hand unintentionally hit your face on the way down, I have not been aggressive but your face hurts just as much.
If a person wants to communicate that certain behaviors and speech are hurtful and damaging , there are other words that fit better than any form of “aggression”. And some of them have been used in this thread- “papercut”, “careless”, “thoughtless”,“clueless”,“stupid”.
I don’t think that most people would think that, not as you described it anyway.
Bullshit. Complete absolute bullshit.
It is completely possible to discuss what hurts you without labelling what hurts you as an act of aggression on the part of others.
It is possible to discuss how to change behaviors so that such inadvertent hurts are avoided or at least decreased. To realize how something is perceived differently from another’s life experience POV, and to be sensitive to it.
It is possible to consider the role of innate biases … by all involved … without considering those actions as “aggressions.” It is even possible to consider that nice people are nice even when they do something that inadvertently bothers you.
Well re-read my posts from the very first one on. If you feel that those did not represent a good faith effort to understand what you are saying then well, honestly, you are unable to see what is in plain view.
And when I am making a good faith effort to understand and to get some help parsing out some areas that to me at least get very fuzzy, being told that what I am doing is not really trying and playing “gotcha” is no microaggression. It is fucking OFFENSIVE.
Don’t be so self-congratulaory. You are not so self-aware. In fact the hypocrisy you’ve demonstrated here is mind-boggling. …
And honestly I am done with this crap.
I have no interest in dealing with people who want what they think to be understood but have no interest in understanding what others think and feel and instead immediately accuse others of playing games … screw it.
DSeid, you’re of Jewish ethnicity, are you not? I mean, you’re a North Shore pediatrician, right? So how do the preconceptions of others affect you?
Really? You didn’t seem to have a problem with this post:
Now, while I disagree with Shagnasty I don’t consider this a particularly horrible thing for him to have said. It would be hypocritical if I did, since I responded by saying that he was the one playing games. But if accusations of game-playing are really so offensive to you, it’s strange that you let that one go without comment.
Do you think Jenni, this woman you’ve never met before, was an evil, malicious bitchmonster?
Or do you think it is quite possible she’s representative of your typical loud-mouth, jocular American?
I’ve experienced many “Jenni’s” in my life. They’ve all been decent, normal human beings–the kind of people who have a lot of friends and function quite well in society. They don’t have horns. They aren’t bad guys in any sense of the word. They are just people who don’t know how they sound to others.
Which is why I don’t do that. But “microaggression” is different from “any ole random thing that hurt my feeling”. A microaggression goes directly to one’s minority status. And if someone is thoughtful and empathic, they won’t ever be a “microaggressor”, because what makes something a “microaggression” can be accurately predicted, when one’s brain and heart are engaged.
I agree with all of these things. If it is your position that we need another word besides “microaggression” to describe inadvertent harm, I’m inclined to agree…as long this doesn’t stop the dialogue. I’m not going to be mired in a semantics game when there’s a more important point to make. The problem isn’t the word. The problem is that people refuse to see that “inadvertent harm” is still harm at the end of the day.
Your early posts were fine. But about a couple of pages back, you jumped the shark. What bump said was offensive. What Habeed said was offensive. What Shagnasty said was offensive. But when you with the face simply and non-controversially stated that the perception of microaggression hinges on one’s context, suddenly your feelings were all hurt. And I still don’t know why.
Have you ever shared with me a time when you found yourself being prejudiced or racially biased against another person? Having an unfortunate savant-like memory, I remember all the stories I have shared with you. But you haven’t been as forthright with me.
Why is this? Why is it that I am able to acknowledge my deep-seated biases and imperfect reasoning as a way of demonstrating that bigotry is a human thing rather than a “white” thing, while you (and plenty of others) seem only committed to maintaining a position of purity and innocence?
Dialoging about race and oppression only works when there’s honesty and detachment. Maybe it’s because I don’t identify as a “victim” that I can talk about this from both sides.
I’d like to say I’m done too, but the “crap” is not going away any time soon. So I suppose the two of us might as well endure it and deal with the emotions so that we can listen better and stop acting so damn defensively.
I’m curious too.
Wrong on location but flattered that I am known even that well …
Also not sure what the relevance is.
And not so sure that I am the best person to ask as I am usually pretty clueless to insults, even those intended … my sister once apologized to me for having insulted me very badly and was not pleased when I did not know what she was talking about.
But sure I have in my life been called “Jew boy” and more. Had a very sweet young woman in college very seriously ask me where my horns were. I am sure that I am clueless about many stereotypes that are placed on me and of course we have multiple threads here in which anti-Semitic tropes come up and are ignored most of the time as calling them out is usually pointless or counter-productive. Overall though I live in a good place and time for Jews and I am cognizant of that. I am also very conscious of history and have anxieties for my future grandchildren. The usual historical pattern is for anti-Semitism to rise after a few generation of successful assimilation and success. I see it rising in our society on both the Right and the Left … which is of course seen as paranoia by many others here, or hypersensitivity … but that is a different discussion.
But again, why does it matter? I have been very clear in this thread that I do not have to deal with the sheer volume of perceived “paper cuts”, let alone the volume of explicit discrimination, that many others in our society do today, and that I see myself as having an ethical obligation to attempt to be sensitive to the sensitivities of others when it is at all reasonable to do so. I am conscious that I am no better or worse than many in having biases that impact my behaviors in ways that I do not appreciate and that the structures of our society have racist impacts that we all have an obligation to attempt to rectify … and have in multiple threads argued those points.
One, I read that particular post as stating that the concept of “microaggressions” is the game set up that way, not accusing you of “playing a game” with your posts.
Two, not my job to police the thread. I am not a mod. If someone insults me I’ll either ignore it or respond.
Neither. But what you said she said was in no way a subtle paper cut.
Of course I was not there. I am going by what you described.
No, really they can’t.
I don’t have your life experience and you do not have mine. And what offends you as a Black American woman may not offend another and vis a versa. What bothers me as an American Jew is different than another of my ethnicity. And the other way there too.
And by definition we are not consciously aware of our innate biases and how they cause us to behave in ways that we (and that includes you too) do not believe we believe.
It requires education in the context of treating each other with mutual respect and yes again, being all parties being willing to critically look at their own behaviors and biases. ALL PARTIES. It requires constantly working at it given that every single person belongs to some group that might take offense at something.
So happy you approve. (I miss old roll eyes.)
Can’t say I recall what bump said. Habeed I recall as offensive. I don’t completely agree with Shag and am not going to review everything he wrote looking for what you are referencing. Again, not my job to police the thread or to respond to every post especially if the points I would have made and have been stated by others.
But your read on what pissed me off is way off base.
My comment to ywthf was a pretty benign one. The reaction to it was not. Simple it should be that my telling you that you are behaving a certain way because a Black person thinks in a particular way because of these experiences would be offensive and that a Black person saying that a White person’s behavior is the result of what they know is what goes on in their head because White is equally offensive and should be avoided because it poisons the well. Just a pebble but be self-aware that it is of similar form.
What then annoyed me was the complete cluelessness you both showed in your defense of that, reacting with the exact same defense mechanisms in almost the exact same scripts that a White person accused of offending would use even to the “I don’t see it see so it is your problem not mine.” level. Again, I can accept that commenting on a bad hair day is horribly offensive even though I in no way understand why (and never will … I’d be thrilled to have hair!). It offends; I will try to not make such a comment. I had stated that explicitly in this thread. ywthf wants to be given that level of consideration … but feels no obligation to give it. “Aint going to happen.”
What pissed me off was your then essentially accusing me of trolling.
But hey I am just one of the “dudes” apparently. Here “to defend [my] innocence” … Is the use of that “dude” phrase a “microagression”? Or meant more explicitly to offend? What does its use tell us?
Not having a savant-like memory I cannot say if I have told personal stories much or not.
I tend not to reveal much of my personal life and history here. My username is essentially my real name and I have no pretense that I am not speaking fully identified.
So maybe not as much as you do. Personal style of what we are comfortable with. But no I have not found you to be as aware of your unfair biases as you believe yourself to be … you sometime admit you have them but you usually feel they are right to have.
I created this op hoping for a dialogue. That there would be the Habeeds was expected. That “your” side of the discussion would be so closed off from any dialogue, instead preferring to dismiss thoughts and feelings of others as immaterial, that “your” side would be so clueless as to how your reactions were in many ways self-same to that which you deride … was not so much so.
To you also - why?
Thanks for clearing that up. See, I was confused because I thought maybe you objected to accusations of game-playing on principle. It makes a lot more sense now that I know it’s something that you only have a problem with when it’s done by people who don’t agree with you.
Because I like when posters open up a little. Shows that they have feelings, that they are capable of seeing a subject from multiple sides, and that the discussion isn’t some theoretical navel-gazing exercise for them.
When it’s always the same posters talking about their experiences with “-isms”, then it becomes easier for the posters without those experiences to think they are just isolated incidents. When only black people talk about bigotry, bigotry becomes a “white-black thing”–which often makes the white people in the audience get defensive. But when it is presented as universal thing that affects lots of people–not just those angry blacks–maybe people can better recognize themselves in the stories. Maybe no one in this thread has ever said something “microaggressiony” to a black person–so they can’t relate to my stories. But maybe someone has asked a Jewish person what church they belong to and never stopped to think how that seemingly harmless question might grate someone’s nerves day after day.
That’s why I’m curious.
Oh it would be easy to be offended by the “What church do you belong to?” and even “How was your Christmas?” and a host of others. The volume isn’t there though for it to be of note nor is there any ill intent.
The Jesus songs in school growing up a little bit more so but not too bad where and when I grew up.
My childhood traumas and adult issues to deal with had and have little to do with my religious beliefs or ethnicity.
The “Jew boy” comment was a first like that for me, was in college and ended up with me afterwards, having felt lucky to have gotten out of the fight that had resulted, with a person much larger than me, alive, cluelessly venting about it in the bar I had been walking to to a friend who happened to be Black who indeed gave me a well deserved roll-eyes to end roll-eyes that such things were so notable to me. He had dealt with much worse.
Personally I have little to complain about. My stories are bupkis. Go back a generation and we lost a lot of family in the Holocaust and my parents dealt with a lot of explicit Jew hating up close and personal.
I am now in Texas, in a very non-Jewish suburb of Houston, and am probably one of only a handful of Jews in the suburb. It is assumed, quite naturally, by everyone around here, that one belongs to some church, and I am asked which church I belong to all the time.
Doesn’t bother me a bit. I don’t understand why it would bother anyone.
It reminds me of that joke about a Hassid from NYC getting off the bus somewhere in the deep South, in full regalia - long black coat, shtreimel, peyot etc. He walks along, and notices that people are staring at him wherever he goes. So he turns around and says: “Wot! You’ve never seen a Yankee before?”
To mirror DSeid’s comment above mine: I lived for the first 16 years of my life in a climate where the aggressions toward Jews were anything but “minor” and quite a few of my older relatives have perished in the Holocaust. So excuse me if I regard the “paper cuts” or “micro-aggressions” thing as simple whining.