I am distrustful of any orc. Given the opportunity, I’ve no doubt they’d double, or triple, cross us. If they’ve any inkling of our plan, then they should stay captive and we need to find another way to implement. At no point should they be allowed any freedom at all. If the King decides to spare them, so be it, but let someone else see to them. Our job is to hunt orcs and clear the hills, not babysit captives.
You do well to be suspicious, Brin, but I cautiously approve this plan. No people have a longer score to settle with the orcs than mine - not even the Naugrim - but I would hasten to grasp the opportunity to send them where they will trouble us no more, in preference to unnecessary butchery.
Let us liaise with the cavalry when they arrive and discuss how best to guard ourselves against treachery.
This is an excellent plan in theory, but it’s extremely risky to trust orcs. However, if we do need to attack the main camp, we might arrange for the orcs to arrange some sort of identifying mark amongst themselves, to denote the rebels from the faithful, so that we can most effectively fight the true enemy.
Thoroncir is very wary. He says, “Brin has it aright, I think. Never have I heard of Men, other than those already under the Dark Lord’s dominion, making common cause with Orcs. Beware, my friends: in the most appealing ideas may lie the most lethal of traps. In any event, this is not a decision for such as us, but for the King and his advisors.”
An interesting idea indeed.
While part of me appreciates the irony of the Orc tribes assisting us in this way, this seems almost too good to be true.
Is there any way to tell if the Orcs are lying or do we have to trust their words?
While Ghân knows of the thousands of years of sickening evil by orcs, the offered choice here is between:
- see if a few orcs will bring their powerful leaders into our ambush outside the lair (and then persuade their tribe to flee these lands)
- the party going in to a vast complicated mountain lair to initially face over 100 orcs + an Uruk-Hai + 6 Hunter-Killers - plus a large number of reinforcements arriving quickly.
The plan does not involve babysitting any captives.
What is your alternative plan to tackle the lair?
Or alternatively Ghan, you could be the biggest sucker this side of the Misty Mountains for believing a fast talking Orc.
If Gil-Gandel is in charge, tackling the lair involves going in the back exit and taking out anything that moves. 
The plan is fine apart from one problem. Once they are away from us, how do we trust them? Do you want to go along with them and check to make sure they are doing what they say, Orcs are not exactly known for their trustworthiness these days. :dubious:
Is there any kind of binding oath they could swear, or do we let them go on their own recogniscence. I somehow think holding one as a hostage will not work, they will probably just leave them for dead.
I offer no alternative plans, other than continue as we have and do our best to pick at these orcs in small groups. Each group we defeat will demoralize the remaining numbers, and increase our odds. My trepidations are about putting any trust at all in any orc. It is likely they view our hesitance to simply slay them outright as a weakness, and are simply waiting for any chance to exploit it.
Ghân understands both your and Mulligan’s concern.
He doesn’t know if we can trust these orcs.
However it seems extremely unlikely that they had prepared a detailed story to deceive us, when they were just going to see why a hunting party was late.
Ghân would be happy to pick off small groups of orcs. We have shown we are good at it.
However if the lair is as described (with large numbers of troops, tough leaders, confusing layouts and speedy reinforcements) it will simply not be possible to enter it and fight one group at a time.
I think Gil-Gandel will agree that ‘going in the back and taking everything that moves’ worked fine on the first small lair where we had surprise, but is not likely to work in a vast complicated lair with many more troops, tougher commanders and rapid communication - and where they are already suspicious.
If the orcs are allowed to proceed eastward, it will be because they have delivered an Uruk-Hai and several Hunter-Killers into our ambush - in the open in daylight.
Perhaps we should be thinking about bringing the orcs out of their holes. Might there be some way to smoke them out? Some way to bring the fight on our own terms? Cave fighting is for dwarves. With a dozen stout dwarves like Gwaelur, we could clear these caves easily, but we’ve only Gwaelur, and even he would eventually succumb to the greater numbers and exhaustion.
And if you are wrong, you will have delivered ourselves into a major Orc ambush which we would have no hope of getting out of.
I really don’t like risks like this.
Ghan, why don’t you ask what guarantees of their action they can give us.
I don’t see that at all. 
On one hand we are with the Cavalry in the open in daylight with Folca flying high as a scout.
On the other we are exploring a vast orc lair on foot in the dark, where the opposition know all the corridors, traps, secret doors and exits.
Which do you think is more likely to lead to an ambush?
Which is riskier?
Ghân doesn’t know of any orc guarantees that the party would accept. Does Deor have ESP?
You think they would reverse an ambush during the day while we are sat there waiting for them? You’re kidding right. If these Orcs aren’t truthful and we let them go, I would not expect us to be here beyond tomorrow night, if they were any good.
Our biggest advantage at the moment is that they still do not know we are here and certainly not any numbers. You seem quite happy to let a set of Orcs wander off and tell all their friends about the group running about the hills.
I personally, have no problems running around dark, trap filled caves, but I think it might inconvenience the rest of the the party a little.
If Deor has ESP, it would be useful. If there are any other spells which could ensure their reliability, I would be interested to hear about it.
Renee, “I like the idea of the working with the Orcs, but I understand the concern. I would not like the plan if it involved the Orcs leading us into the caves. Is this not the time to pull in the other groups along with the brave riders? It seems we may have found what we sought.”
Theogrim, you have no feel for the orcs truth. You are normally a good judge of humans, but orcs are beyond your knowledge.
For the record, I have rendered the collective orcs speaking into simple to read responses, in reality, this conversation has been sifted from their low and guttural corruption of Westron.
Renee adds after hearing Ghân & Mulligan, “I might be able to use a detect Lie spell”.
I’m not kidding. In daylight, in the open, with our hawk, we have a clear advantage.
The orcs have already sent out a party to check on the lair we attacked. If that group does not return soon, they will know for sure that an enemy is in the area.
I am quite happy to find out about the lair and see if I can engineer a revolt of over a hundred orcs, leading to an ambush of their leaders.
Still if you think my plan is so crass, please come up with a better one.
Given half the party are human, I think running around dark trap-filled caves is more than ‘a little inconvenience’.
You only have to fail one Climb Walls to be in trouble from half a dozen orcs - how well will you fare with a hundred opponents including Hunter-Killers?
Deor, unable to sleep with all the commotion, rolls over and says, "That’s good, because I don’t have ESP or anything like it. We should check, but I agree with Renee- we don’t need to go this alone. We’ve already called for the cavalry, and putting that beacon in the tree will probably summon more than cavalry. I suggest we get some sleep- we’ll need it tomorrow.
It is not that we think your plan is crass, and as you can see, better ones have not been forthcoming. It is just that the best plans need to be attacked from all sides, because that is precisely what the enemy will do. The more weak points we have prodded and reinforced, the harder it will be for our enemy to exploit them.
Right now, our biggest weak point is the reliance on orcs to help. Who knows how many hidden exits and possible external ambush points exist? Instead of fomenting a rebellion, they might be currying favor by setting up the raiding party. The question we need to answer is, “How do we guard against that?”
Renee, “Alas, I am sorry, I erred and cannot cast a detect lie. Perhaps there are more questions to ask the orcs to come upon a more agreeable plan?”
You missed the point. They won’t attack during the day. They will wait until night when they do have the advantage. You want to hang around after dark with a couple of hundred Orcs, assorted shaman, H/Ks etc etc with a load of people who cannot see at that time.
If so, more fool you. Let’s not let that situation occur.
Wow, you are far too confident for our own safety. I really hope you are right because you are putting a lot of this on pure faith. Can you not see certain of the drawbacks to this plan or are you really that bullheaded?
Point taken, it would be severly inconvenient for all and sundry. Although I think you missed the bit where I said this plan was fine if we can be assured that we are not being completely and utterly fooled.
Renee: Your suggestion for Detect Lie is an excellent idea, and will give some of us, at least for me, a but more of an inkling that the Orcs are on the level.