Add me to the commenters who feel that’s a very well-stated and accurate post.
Hurling insults out of the blue just makes you look like an asshole. If you’re just relitigating old shit with no explanation or reason, why bother?
Yeah, to the point that this apparently unwarranted attack on Beck does more to put her in a sympathetic light than anything chela did here.
(I propose going forward that “pulling a chela” be the term for making a misguided attempt to defend someone in a way that’s fat more damaging than what you’re trying to defend them from.)
Maybe I wasn’t clear. I’ve already said that Beck’s comment was clumsily worded and inappropriate under the circumstances, and she apologized for it. But as I also said, I think the fact that this was not a native English speaker is irrelevant both because they didn’t disclose that fact until later, and because language proficiency had nothing to do with the problems with that post.
Look, you don’t write “Thanksss” because you’re not a native English speaker. You don’t write “2st time here” because you’re not a native English speaker, or write “saud” for “said”. These are not markers of ESL, they’re markers of someone who just doesn’t give a shit about the form and readability of their posts. So accusations that Beck’s criticism is “that much worse” because it was against a non-native English speaker are misplaced, and this whole thing was blown way out of proportion.
In my time on this board, I’ve learned that here (maybe not everywhere on the web but at least on the SDMB) that those are pretty much always signs that they’re not a native English speaker. The reason is because this is a place where people don’t write that way and it’s obvious even at a quick glance that it’s the case, so someone contributing usually tries to do their best to fit in. When they struggle, it’s usually because English isn’t their first language.
More rarely it’s some other reason, such as a disability of some kind, but I literally can’t think of a time when it was because they “don’t give a shit”. Other places, sure, that’s common, but here it’s almost unheard of.
In post # 6 in that original thread, ilansho also used the word “I.” IMHO, he/she used it correctly within the given context.
Now you cherry-pick again. It’s your turn, and – like chela – you’re proving my fundamental points about:
- fanboys
- cults of personality
- confirmation bias, and
- the “soft bigotry of low expectations.”
I read non-native speaker very quickly. Obviously, others did, too. FWIW, so did the two LLMs that I pointed toward the thread.
And I strongly believe that it made worse … something that was just inherently both gratuitous and bad (bad bad bad).
It’s wrong to tease a kid with a limp. It makes you an asshole when it turns out the kid has cerebral palsy.
And that’s in addition to agreeing with everything @Atamasama just wrote.
Can you explain how the three examples I cited could possibly arise from being a non-native English speaker? Is there some language that has words ending in “sss”? Or is just carelessness that could have been avoided by being slightly more attentive, or remedied with just a moment’s review?
We have a number of non-native English speakers here and they sometimes make grammatical mistakes. It would never even occur to me to try to “correct” them. That’s not what this is.
Like chela, you keep proving my point.
I’ll leave you to it, then.
I assumed they were non-native and sloppy. Sloppy alone didn’t seem to cover it.
The point I’ve been trying to make – with some apparently disagreeing – is that “sloppy” precisely covers it, though I used terms like “inattentive” and “careless”. ISTM that if someone isn’t a native English speaker, their usage may show grammatical quirks or solecisms, and as I said above, I’d never comment on or criticize those. But sloppiness is just willful disregard for the reader. But again, I think Beck’s comment was out of line, but it wasn’t about language proficiency.
Me making a joke about a kid’s limp isn’t “about” Cerebral Palsy either.
You’re repeatedly extrapolating from your three cherry-picked words out of a ‘corpus’ of some 170-ish words posted by ilansho.
What possible reason could there be for you to do that unless it was to validate a conclusion to which you’re clinging way too tightly?
You’re one of our resident hobbyist linguists, are you not? Due respect (and you know I mean that): you know better than this.
There are no melanomas on the soles of my feet, so I definitely do not have skin cancer???
Blind spot. PROFOUND blind spot – both you and chela.
Think about it.
ETA:
Also, in what universe, and by what explanation, is this possibly a binary choice? non-native English speakers can’t be careless? Can’t use slang? Can’t post on cell phones where convention tends to get ever looser? Can’t be young and less burdened by rigid grammatical and syntactical orthodoxy than you or me??
I am truly at a loss to understand.
Like “2st time here”?
Geez, you really want to die on this silly walnut of a hill, don’t you?
I believe you when you say that you can’t tell that the posts were written by a non-native speaker. Why can’t you believe those of us to whom it was obvious?
ETA: and Uncle Google also just offered me this, not that it’s relevant to the appropriateness of the remark that started this whole kerfuffle (bolding mine):
German spelling rules sometimes result in three consecutive identical letters in compound words (like Schifffahrt). Depending on dialect or compound formations (especially involving the letter s), triple-s formations can occur, though newer orthography rules often simplify these. [1]
It’s not complicated. Of course non-native English speakers can be careless and sloppy, and when they are, they deserve to be called out on it just like anyone should be. They should not be immune from criticism for these things as the result of – as you like to put it – the soft bigotry of low expectations.
As I keep saying, this is completely different from a non-native English speaker using quirks of grammar that might be considered “wrong” in standard English, perhaps reflecting the grammatical structures or idioms of their native language. These quirks can actually be charming and linguistically interesting. The speaker or writer is doing their best and criticizing them is a pretty low form of jerkishness.
But careless, sloppy writing is just lazy. It makes the reader’s job harder and deserves to be called out as bad practice. It’s something that’s always bugged me. Again, I’m not justifying what Beck did, I’m just explaining a key difference.
It’s shockingly inflexible of you to believe it’s cool to hold a brand new SDMB poster to that kind of rigid standard about shit that matters not one whit.
Again, though: disappointed, but not surprised.
Since you just keep doubling down, please allow me to reciprocate:
It’s wrong to tease a kid about his limp. You’re an asshole if the kid has Cerebral Palsy.
Bad analogy. The kid can’t do anything about his limp. But whether the kid has a limp or not, it’s not wrong to criticize him for leaving a mess in the lunch room because he’s too lazy or undisciplined to clean up after himself.
I didn’t say it was cool. I didn’t say Beck was right. I’m not opposed to the idea that a new poster should be cut some slack. FWIW, I’d like to see the board grow its membership and I’m all in favour of being welcoming to new members. I’m not the one who criticized the new poster.
I’m opposed to the idea that anyone should in general be cut some slack on matters that have nothing to do with language just because they’re not a native English speaker.
Let me rephrase, in order to be sure I’m correctly understanding your point. Arguendo… I’m opposed to the idea that anyone in general be cut some slack on matters that have nothing to do with Cerebral Palsy just because they walk with a limp.
It had absolutely everything to do with language.
Would you cheer if Donald Trump signed an Executive Order repealing the Americans With Disability Act?
Which of your other pet peeves should we abandon basic decency in order to cater to? Is there a list somewhere?
ETA: I walk with a limp. My cardiac output is about 40% of normal, and surely a much lower percentage than my pre-morbid state, since I’ve been athletic my whole life.
I can correct that limp with attention, exertion, and effort. Must I in order to satisfy something broken in you? For how long? To what degree? How will my gait be evaluated and measured?
Thank you for your attention to this matter!
You need a better word than “pedantic.” Seriously. This is a level of obsession and cognitive rigidity that I haven’t seen in a long-ass time.
It’s truly shameful. Exhale. Do something. Touch grass.
The idea that you’re painting ilansho as some sort of grave transgressor in this equation is deeply troubling and really fucked up.
You sound positive .Thank you . As non American understanding your American lingo..“It’s wrong to tease a kid with a limp” well i’m not a kid and as a bit old MAN and I walk quite ok 
- Thank G or any divine something for not being American with all that PC [Btw check Singer Noga Erez "PC People " and “Views” ..they say what most of us think ] isn’t it hard watching what became of my simple one line question ?
PS
The "warning " comment apologized ..its crazzzyyyy
There’s a history with her, and I’d like this message board to be far more welcoming to you, but not only to you.
Whether or not you were offended by what she said is important, but it isn’t the only thing that is important.
Also, HI, ILANSHO!!
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