Sorry for the odd question, and this is definitely NOT a canivore vs vegetarian debate, just an honest question. My sister is a vegetarian and I don’t try to alienate her because of this - ie, I don’t keep asking her why or offering her sausages etc, but she keeps asking me why I eat meat and shoving web pages about slaughter houses at me, so now I think its fair game to give her my opinion when she brings the subject up.
The other day an idea occured to me and I asked her why she drank milk and ate cheese if she was so against slaughter because surely just about every male calf born has to then be slaughtered otherwise we’d be knee deep in cows. She shrugged this off as stupid and said they could be put down humanely instead if no-one ate meat.
Now not every bull will be useful considering one can inseminate 1000’s of female cows and if roughly 50% of calves are male then there’d be a lot left over. Assuming most of the male cows born to dairy farmers are sold on to meat farmers to be slaughtered for beef, this must be a noticeable part of the dairy farmer’s income. Also, the costs to put each calf down humanely would be huge so if all this WAS done the price of milk would shoot up so highly that very few people (including my sis) would be prepared to pay it so would have to stop drinking milk and eating cheese.
Ergo, why does she feel morally able to buy these products when the only way she can afford to is by male calves being slaughtered?
Again, this is not a criticism of vegetarians, I just want to know if my facts are straight and if my argument holds water or not. If someone wants to be a vegetarian I feel that is their choice, regardless of the facts but I’d like to see if this argument is valid.
“She shrugged this off as stupid and said they could be put down humanely instead if no-one ate meat.”
That’s just bizarre. The vast majority of cows killed in slaughterhouses are put down perfectly humanely, usually with a bolt-gun or something similar. Occasionally of course things are muffed up and it might get a bit messy, but I fail to see how doing the same thing to bullcalves is somehow more humane than doing it to steers. Or does she think that someone would pay for a morphine overdose for all those calves? Not a chance. It wouldn’t be enough to result in a huge increase in dairy prices, but given economic realities it simply wouldn’t happen.
There would also be a huge disadvantage to this - it’s very difficult to tell which are the best bullcalves when they’re first born, which would make selecting which to keep for breeding stock pretty much a crap shoot. And no, you couldn’t keep them around for a few months before deciding, because feeding them costs money, money you aren’t going to be able to recoup. Cull bullcalves would be killed immediately after birth.
A third point you’ve overlooked is that the price received for dairy steers when they’re sold for slaughter is supplementary income for the dairy farmer, and if that were lost then milk production would become much less economical. Culled milk cows are also slaughtered for their meat (though this isn’t worth as much, given their age), which is yet another revenue stream for the dairy farm. Losing these sources of income would result in a huge increase in dairy prices.
It would appear that your sister doesn’t have a very good understanding of the basic facts of life in agriculture. Dairy production is inextricably intertwined with meat production.
You can look up any number of vegan websites about the evils of the dairy industry.
Starting at about the age of 2, dairy cows spend most of the year pregnant. The calves are taken away after just a couple of days. and the cow is milked for about ten months, producing roughly ten times the amount of milk needed for her calf. The forced extra milk poduction can demand so much protein, the cow can end up suffering from acidosis, which makes her lame (this affects 25% of dairy herds).
A cow’s normal life span is about 20 years, dairy cows live about 5.
The calves are slaughtered at a few days old and are usually processed into pet food and/or rennet (the lining of the fourth stomach dried and used to curdle milk) for cheese. Some are raised as beef cattle, others get turned into veal cutlets.
The above info is from a vegan website, I haven’t googled around to corroborate. But if you want to freak out your sister, tell het she’s eating baby cow stomach when she’s gnoshing on cheese.
Thanks so much both of you, this will be enough to freak her out, not that I’m mean, I just don’t like hypocrisy in any shape or form.
If she doesn’t want to eat meat thats fine and I appreciate a minority of cows are slaughtered painfully but I just got sick of the assumption that eating meat is somehow hideous compared to drinking milk when they really go hand in hand. Her real point is that she doesn’t mind not eating meat but can’t give up her milk, she just doesn’t want to admit it.
Thanks for recommending the vegan sites, stupidly didn’t think of that. Cheers!
I know an avowed vegetarian who won’t give up bacon.
As for cheese, from wholefoods website:
That really makes cheese sound unappleaing.
People have different reasons for vegetarianism. My fiancee and I are lacto-ovo vegetarians. We will eat dairy and eggs. I simply don’t like the texture or muskiness of most meats, but I have no qualms about fish. My finacee gets the heebie-jeebies eating most meats because it somehow makes her feel like a cannibal. Eggs and dairy don’t scream “recognizable body part!!!” to her. It’s not so much an ethical choice as one of personal preference.
There are also degrees to participating in ethical choices. Few can manage the absolutes (although I respect those who try). Example: I recycle diligently… Or so I thought! My fiancee has been using the same roll of aluminum foil for five years! Diligently washing and re-using it. That would be similar to your sister’s ethical choices for not eating meat, but sitll eating dairy. I could re-use my aluminum foil too, but don’t. Your sister could stop consuming all forms of animal products, but doesn’t. We just do what we can within our personal comfort zone. (Whether or not that makes us hypocrites or dumbasses would be for another forum).
However, she should not be so naive about it. Get her a nice vegan recipe book for the holidays! She could then eat great tasting stuff with a clear conscience. There are some vegan cheeses that are quite good. They don’t always melt well on pizza though.
I’m not sure. It was from the vegan site that I mentioned above that I had not yet verified or corraborated form another source. I’ll look it up though…
At PubQuiz website has a list of average and extreme life spans of various animals. Cows get 10-22 respectively. Another sad-looking site says 22 years… still no idea how it’s been calculated. freshfolder.com says 25 years (no calcuation either). A different vegan webiste says 18-35. The cows are getting older and older! Food Magazine (UK, I think) also has an article saying normal cows live 18-30 years, but dairy cows only about 5. No one is stating who/how/where these measurements were taken. :mad:
'cos it sounded appealing when it was old solid soured mouldy milk ?
Mmmmm, mouldy milk.
As for the age of cows, Wikipedia says that dairy cows kept inside stop by economically viable after around five years and so are slaughtered. So while ‘dairy cows live about 5’ is true, it’s misleading because it’s only true because they’re killed, chances are they’d live much longer if they were put out to pasture.
I’m very interested in how the Indian dairy industry copes with all this as it’s something I’d never considered before.
I’m curious about this too. The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations says on their website that “India is one the largest bovine leather producers in the world accounting in recent years for 12 percent and 6 percent of global output of heavy and light bovine leather respectively.”
No, it was much more appealing was rennet was “fancy cheese making fairy dust, sprinkled on top”.
“Sliced and scraped calf gut” doesn’t have quite a comparable ring to it.
That makes much more sense to me. Although it seems strange that an animal could lose its economiv viability at such an early age. A fifteen-year-old cow I can see being a little dry, but at 7 or 9, you’d think it could kep up with production. Unless the physical demands really are as taxing as the vegan sites say in which case it doesn’t sound like the cow would live much longer anyway. (Speculation, no fact there, move along.)
A lot of economically useless cattle in India are allowed to “live free” - ie forced into barren land to starve to death. Hardly a humane solution.
India also has a lot of cattle trading. Hindus revere their cattle but also close their minds to their eventual fate when they sell them to Muslim cattle dealers who have no religious prohibition against slaughtering them.
It’s probably an economic matter. An eight year old cow will consume as much as a four year old cow but probably produce less milk. At the same time, a younger cow can probably be sold for a higher slaughter price. So farmers would make the pragmatic decision to sell their dairy cows at a certain age and replace them with younger cows.
They probably chant and pray while they do it so it makes it all ok.
Most likely, though, they revere them, sell them to a non religious slaughterhouse, buy the leather and no blood is on their hands. You just gotta love holy law loopholes.
Most of what that web site quoted was half right. And from reading it, I didn’t get the impression they were trying to make things worse than what is really out there - just that they don’t know the facts.
Actually - the goal is for a cow to have her first calf at 2 - which means she got pregnant 9 months earlier at 15 months of age.
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The calves are taken away after just a couple of days…
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Calves are typically taken away immediately, and most dairy experts will tell you the sooner the better. Very, very few economically viable dairy herds let calves hang with mom at all. They are more likely to catch diseases from the adult animals the longer they’re with them. They are fed colostrum (the first milk which gives them immunity) that is probably from other cows on the farm that has been tested and is known to be good quality and free from disease.
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and the cow is milked for about ten months, producing roughly ten times the amount of milk needed for her calf. The forced extra milk poduction can demand so much protein, the cow can end up suffering from acidosis, which makes her lame (this affects 25% of dairy herds). .
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Cows gestation is 9 months. Dairy farmers shoot for 12 month calving intervals and they typically have the cow dry off for 3 months between lactations. So a cow’s year looks like this: Have calf and start milking. Three months later get pregnant again. Six months after that, dry off and stop milking for three months. Have another calf.
Acidosis is caused by giving cows too much carbohydrate, not protein. As a matter of fact, feeding excess protein leads to the opposite -alkalosis. A sequalae to acidosis can be laminitis, a form of lameness. Overfeeding carbohydrate is not much of a problem in dairy herds. Most of the cows’ metabolic disease result from taking in not enough nutrients, not too many. The site may be confusing acidosis with ketosis. This occurs when cows mobilize body fat because they aren’t eating enough energy. That is quite common in dairy cows.
Aside - having offspring annually is fairly typical for wild animals with hooves such as deer, moose, etc. etc. So getting pregnant once per year is pretty much the norm with many animals. Being pregnant most of the time is fairly normal for most female mammals across the board. It’s not like mice, squirrels, etc. etc. etc. take a year off between litters.
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A cow’s normal life span is about 20 years, dairy cows live about 5. .
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Dairy cows are culled when their milk production decreases. Sometimes due to disease, sometimes due to old age. Beef cows no doubt live longer on average than dairy cows, but few get over 12- 13. There are very, very few cattle that live to be 20, although no doubt pet cows can. I know a cow that is 18 that keeps going because she has monthly injections and daily medication to help her arthritis.
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The calves are slaughtered at a few days old and are usually processed into pet food and/or rennet (the lining of the fourth stomach dried and used to curdle milk) for cheese. Some are raised as beef cattle, others get turned into veal cutlets.
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Dairy bulls (except for the teeny tiny few who are kept as bulls) are typically castrated and either raised as veal calves or raised as beef steers. Holstein steaks tase a lot like Angus steaks. Pet food is usually made of the parts of cattle that humans don’t eat - lung primarily.
In a word…no. Well all right. I suppose it’s not absolutely outside the realm of possibility that a cow MIGHT be conditioned to produce a LITTLE milk by dint of stimulation, just as it is possible to induce lactation in a woman who has never had a baby. But it’s a long slow difficult process, and the female in question - human or bovine - would be unlikely to produce enough to feed an infant of its species unsupplemented, let alone to produce enough to be economically viable (if bovine).
Dairy cows have a “milk production curve” that normally peaks at age four and continues on a plateau through age ten, then production begins to decline. At some point a management decision is made to cull the cow due to lower production.
McDonald’s is the largest purchaser of carcasses of retired dairy cows. Lotsa’ hamburger in those big Holstein cows!
If there is any validity to the claim that dairy cattle have a five year average lifespan, it would be because they have factored in the short lives of veal calves, which are normally slaughtered at about 3 months of age.
Cite: My memory from a dairy production course I took in college.
