Vegetarians who eat dairy products

Great Debates
1

How do people who are vegetarians for moral reasons justify eating dairy products?

I pass many dairy farms on my way to work and some of them also raise veal calves. When I asked one of them about it, they pointed out that in order to keep a cow “freshened” you need to breed her once a year. If the calf is female then it’s no problem. If the calf is male, then it’s pretty much destined to be veal, as there are a very limited number of male calves that become breeders.

Are there any people who are vegetarians for moral reasons who can explain this to me?

BTW, I don’t know if this is the right forum for this post, so feel free to move it to the right place.

2

OK, I’ll bite (har!). Yes, taking milk out of the mouth of a calf whose chances then become great of going straight to the slaughterhouse just so I can enjoy everything from ice cream to lattes is not what I’d call the moral high-ground. However, just because I have chosen not to eat meat does not (a) mean I choose not to eat meat for moral reasons or (b) mean that I should force myself to not consume any animal products for the sake of moral consistency. In other words, just because I am in part responsible for perpetuating an industry which slaughters calves does not mean I should abandon my moral objection to eating the flesh of an animal just so my beliefs and moral stances fit nice and neatly into a pidgeon hole for myself, you, or anyone else.

Ethics, especially the human sort, are rarely simple or consistent. When I first became a vegetarian, I tried to be a vegan, having been convinced (still am) that animal products are a poor choice for my diet, for reasons primarily having to do with health and environmental concerns. Since this isn’t intended to become a debate, I won’t enumerate those reasons here. The idea of not wanting to kill something, while that was certainly part of my drive, was not the main reason. I still swat flies, I still mass-murder bacteria living in my body, I still cannibalize plants–all living things. Maybe not furry and cute, but at what biological level does taking a life cease to be of moral significance?

I returned to eating dairy (including eggs) when I found my diet was unmanageable–I couldn’t eat out, I couldn’t eat many things I enjoyed, and it was hard to get enough complete proteins through grains, veggies, and legumes. So I have been slowly moving toward veganism by eliminating these things from my diet gradually, instead of cold turkey. This is partly due to lack of willpower, also in part due to the lack of a wide support system for veganism (“You’re a *what?[/i}”).

The health risks of eating veined meat (again, I’m not positing this as a fact we should all accept–only to say that I am satisfied for myself that it is the case) as a primary component to one’s diet outweigh the risks of consuming dairy products as a supplement to it–although there is certainly evidence that dairy’s not a good idea in any amount. But it’s hard to make such a decison, even harder to make the transition. And it’s primarily about health, the environment, and sustainability–morality is further down on the list.

But even if it was about morality: if I have the choice between contributing to the death of a cow and a calf, or just a calf, and I choose to contribute just to the death of a calf, I take the view that if it isn’t a better choice, it’s at least no worse. And I don’t feel any obligation to be consistent about it, especially if I feel like I’m moving toward a life choice that doesn’t involve consuming any animal products at all.

3

Justify to whom?

4

From a moral/ethical standpoint dairy products are just as bad as meat. But it’s damned difficult to give up dairy. The alternatives just aren’t widely available, outside a few major cities (and having lived as a vegan in two of them - New York and London - I’ll testify that it’s not what you would call “easy” there either).

Surely it’s better to congratulate lacto-ovo vegetarians for taking the big step of giving up meat, rather than scold them for not taking the enormous step of giving up dairy?

5

Well, you don’t actually have to kill a cow every time you want a glass of milk. Eating anything involves killing something. Even vegans kill (& eat) hundreds of small invertebrates with every salad. Everyone draws the line somewhere, I draw it at sentient creatures.

Most male calves become "cattle’, not “veal”. About 90%.

6

I would also add that part of this process of determining where to “draw the line” is intuitive. Many people (including myself) will eat eggs and dairy and even a bit of fish every now and then, but would never eat red meat or poultry. This common pattern also reflects the relative complexity/evolutionary age of the animals in question. This might seem inconsistent with an “all or nothing” way of thinking, but life hardly ever really works that way.
Perhaps the word “vegetarian” is then a bit misleading, but ovo-lacto-(pesco-)… is also a bit silly. Perhaps non-meat-eater could suffice.

7

How so? I don’t know much about animal husbandry, but a cow that is producting milk has to be milked. Whether that’s done by a calf or by a machine that then shunts it off to my local grocer, the morality seems to be the same.

I’m a vegetarian, but I have no moral problem in consuming animal products that can be obtained without causing significant harm to the animal. For example, I buy eggs from free-range chickens, and whenever possible, milk from small dairy farms where I can be confident that the cows are given as much freedom as possible. These are products that these animals produce naturally, and to a large degree (see below), it causes no harm to the animal to produce them. Ergo, I don’t see how eating dairy products is in any way morally equivalent to eating meat.

That being said, I recognize a slight moral issue raised by the OP-- that in order for cows to keep producing milk, they must be unnaturally kept in a pregnant (or recently so) state. I don’t know specifically how often this must be done to preserve milk production; humans, for example, can lactate for years after giving birth once. As for what happens to the calves, I have a little less concern: the females simply become more dairy stock. The males-- well, they eventually become beef for people who choose to eat it. If the time ever comes that demand by non-vegetarians for beef drops off so much that the offspring from dairy cows are no longer in demand by carnivores, I’ll happily reassess my consumption of dairy products.

8

I would also speculate that some people become vegetarians for other than what you would consider “moral” reasons. I have considered becoming vegetarian, but not because I think it is inherently wrong to kill a cow. Simply because I believe that a diet with less meat would be healthier for me.

Needs2know

9

Personally, I draw the line at mammals. “Don’t eat within your own biological classification” I always say. :slight_smile: Partially for health reasons, partially for the “sentience” rationale. Or maybe it was that time I saw a slaughtered pig. :eek:

10

I had been vegetarian for years, and only switched to vegan a few months ago. Giving up dairy was easy. It involved little more than replacing the cow milk on my breakfast cereal with soy milk (which tastes better, as it turns out).

I switched to vegan for health reasons. My concern about consuming protein is actually the reverse of what most folks expect: I’m careful not to get too much protein. Even a vegan can easily overdo the tofu. Excess protein is hard on your liver & kidneys. Adults (at least non-bodybuilder adults) actually need far less protein than the meat & dairy industries have indoctrinated them to believe. Excess protein results in high levels of uric acid which dissolves calcium and contributes to osteoporosis, ladies. Those who drink a lot of milk to ward off osteoporosis are more likely making it worse! And I think bodybuilders look gross. I felt better after going vegan and decreasing protein.

11

To quote Drew Carey… “Dolphin free tuna? That’s great if your a dolphin, what about the Tuna?”. And to quote Eric Cartman “If those dolphins are so smart, why do they keep getting caught in the Tuna nets?”

Do “moral” vegetarians really just care about the “cute” animals? What about leather shoes or belts?

12

When I was a vegetarian (was for about 2 years but am no longer) I had no problem with eating dairy. I didn’t become a vegetarian for moral reasons. Meat just started tasting really bad to me so I stopped eating it. Eventually the cravings came back and I started eating it again. There was no moral dilemma that I had to solve.

I had a friend in college who was a vegan. She was a real hypocrite. One day I came to school in my new leather jacket and she started crying about it (literal tears streaming down her face) saying how could I wear the cow, and a lot of other crap. I looked at her and told her that she was wearing leather shoes, a leather belt, and carrying a leather purse. It was all true. Suddenly she wasn’t so sad about it anymore. AAARRRGGGGHHH!!! That really bothered me. In fact it was the only time a vegan has bothered me. As it is now, I eat plenty of vegetables and significantly less meat.

I also never understood that there could be an icthio (sp?) vegetarian. Catholics and those vegetarians rationalize it by saying that fish is not meat. Meat is the flesh of an animal. Thus fish is meat. That really bothers me. Icthio vegetarians really aren’t vegetarians at all but non beef, pork and poultry eaters.

HUGS!
Sqrl

13

Yes. We refuse to eat any animal which has ever been featured with a speaking or lead role in a Disney film. This, I believe, limits us to the platypus, the ferret, and the sloth. And you have no idea how atrocious sloth steaks taste.

No, we don’t eat those either. Speaking for myself only, I also don’t wear them.

The real answer to the OP, of course, is that we’re worse than Hitler.

14

I wouldn’t say unnaturally kept pregnant. The OP is about correct in stating one pregnancy a year. Let’s say she has a calf on 1/1/00. We try to breed her about 4/1/00. If she doesn’t breed we’ll try again every 21 days (period length). After breeding we’ll stop milking her (dry her off) at the beginning of third trimester, hopefully around 10/1/00 and she will calve again around 1/1/01. If cows were wild animals then it would be my estimate that they would calve at least once a year with the outside possibility of calving as soon as every 10 months, taking into consideration a full term pregnancy and bred at the first cycle after birth.

You’re pretty much spot on about the calves. Females are raised for dairy purposes, prices are quite high right now for female calves and yearlings, at least in my area (upstate NY). Males are usually sold for beef raising or veal. I had some numbers on how many veal calves the state was producing in comparison to other states and the national total but can’t find the periodical at the moment. By taking the number of cows producing milk and cutting in that number in half you could determine a percentage of veal to male calves raised for beef (this assumes a cow is pregnant once a year and half the offspring are male) The USDA should have those numbers on their site somewhere.

I remember reading that veal numbers were down due to lower demand so I would think that the trend is downward on veal. I would have to agree after sitting down to dinner and checking the menu it seems that the veal dishes aren’t as expensive, in comparision to the other dishes, as they used to be.

15

I think for me, there’s a cultural bias that makes it hard to consider fish to be meat. In Jewish dietary law, there is a strict prohibition on mixing meat and dairy. But fish is considered pareve (neither meat nor dairy) and thus may be eaten with either one. Since, to the extent that I am able, I observe the dietary laws, I just can’t think of fish as meat ;j(not O, but love the smiley).

Incidentally, because kosher meat is expensive, salty, and imposes limits on my ability to consume ice cream for dessert, I eat very little meat (once a month, at most). OTOH, I eat fish 2 or 3 times a week. For the majority of meals, I am ovo-lacto veg. When people ask, I tell them I’m a ‘pescatarian’.

Rick

16

Just dug up a few numbers. The total number of dairy cows is estimated at around 9 million with the number of veal animals each year being (according to American Veal Association) 750,000. Which would equal roughly 8.3 percent of calves or 16.7 percent of male calves. This of course assumes (and this may be a poor assumption) that all veal calves derive from the dairy breeds. The AVA’s website does state that the great majority of veal calves are from the dairy breeds.

Now can I get any further away from the OP ?

17

Nowadays, this is basically just tradition, but originally, there actually was a reason for the fish-on-Fridays rule (incidentally, the rule now just applies to Fridays in Lent). In the Middle Ages, when this (and many other Catholic rules) was first developed, meat was very expensive-- Only the landowner could legally hunt, and most folks didn’t have the resources to raise their own livestock. On the other hand, anybody could go down to the river to fish, so fish was a common staple for protein. The idea behind the prohibition against meat on Fridays was that it was a prohibition against luxury on that day: Meat was a luxury, but fish was not. Of course, nowadays fish is more expensive than meat, so the rule should really be repealed or even reversed, but you try getting the Roman Catholic Church to change.

As an aside: The prohibition is actually against eating the flesh of warm-blooded animals, so mammals and birds are out, but reptiles, amphibians, and invertabrates are allowable along with fish.

18

Back a few messages, I submitted that eating fish to the exclusion of other animals can be an intuitive/evolution-hierarchal response, as I believe it is in my personal case, and that of my wife (to a lesser extent, since she only usually has a bite of the fish) but also other people I have met. Does anyone else feel this way? After all, as someone else mentioned some messages back, the line must be drawn somewhere, and with all the zillions of microscopic animals we kill and eat and inhale every hour, that somewhere can’t be at the threshhold of the animal kingdom.

19

Well, everyone’s being relatively polite so far. Let’s try Great Debates for this one.

20

**

I often rib my vegetarian friends about this one. If you’ve ever seen a commercial dairy, it’s pretty hard not to just want to put the poor beasts out of their misery. I know I would rather be dead than stuck in one of those hell-holes. However, it is quite justifyable.
Have you ever heard of the Jains? A religious group in India. They believe that every life is sacred and must not be harmed. The hard-core ones actually do starve themselves to death. Believing that every life is valuable leads them to doing some messed up shit. They have these animal hospitals where they care for crippled or sick animals. Some of these animals are in terrible pain. The humane thing to do would be to put them out of their misery. Believing that every life is sacred, Jains refuse to do that. They just let the animals live in agony.