Misogyny on the SDMB, Sept. 2018 edition

The term my favorite blogger would use is “tending his garden”:

And people think “Hm, I could hang out at 4Chan and be called a ‘fag’. Or I could hang out at Slate Star Codex and discuss things rationally and learn a lot. And if I want to be allowed in, all I have to do is not be an intellectually dishonest jerk.”

[…]

Andrew thinks I am trying to fight all the evils of the world, and doing so in a stupid way. But sometimes I just want to cultivate my garden.

[…]

Creationists lie. Homeopaths lie. Anti-vaxxers lie. This is part of the Great Circle of Life. It is not necessary to call out every lie by a creationist, because the sort of person who is still listening to creationists is not the sort of person who is likely to be moved by call-outs. There is a role for organized action against creationists, like preventing them from getting their opinions taught in schools, but the marginal blog post “debunking” a creationist on something is a waste of time. Everybody who wants to discuss things rationally has already formed a walled garden and locked the creationists outside of it.

(Good post, btw.)

Basically the question is, where do we draw the line on what to wall off? We absolutely wall off opinions; the opinions of someone who feels the need to post links to Goatse pretending that they’re kitten pictures will not be respected and will not be tolerated, obviously. Outright Nazis or “race war now” types? Also probably not. Opinion here seems to be that what SA is doing falls on the wrong side of that line. I don’t think that’s a bad decision.

This might be a lil’ out there for ATMB, so I’ll just pop it in the pit and link to it. But short version: better conservatives? Where? How? Good people didn’t vote for Trump. Good people definitely don’t continue to support him.

Raventhief and Blob.
You are done with your grammar bickering in this thread.
Take it to e-mail.

(Everyone else: their sparring is off limits for all posters while in this thread.)

[ /Moderating ]

When you realized it was that it was “a lil’ out there,” you should have not posted it. Equating conservatives with Trump supporters is nothing more than expressing you prejudices while ignoring those conservatives who have a nd continue to oppose Trump.
Stick to the topic and take your rants to The BBQ Pit.

[ /Moderating ]

Bickering? Sparring? I answered posts directed at me. Nothing more.

I get pulled up for defending my (correct) grammar, and that vile, sleazy, creep Starving Artist is allowed to repeatedly post his endless CRAP and his baseless abuse?

Ok. End of the line for me.

Well, it was a good 4 months.

I’ve gone ahead and extended this another 4 days to make it a full week. Still in process of discussion.

In my opinion, this seems way too aggressive for such a minor issue. What is wrong with just saying “This grammar issue has become a big of a hijack. If you feel you must discuss it, please take it to another thread”?

I mean, we’re all on edge here. I don’t like this aggressive tone for small issues most of the time, but it seems particularly ill advised today. It doesn’t surprise me at all that this might be too much for blob after everything else.

I will, of course, assume you are also on edge. And I’m sure it comes off more aggressive than you likely intended. But it does seem to me like some aggressive man barking orders, rather than just reminding some adults that they’ve entered a hijack.

And I definitely think a softer touch would work better, both for you and for other posters. Maybe it doesn’t touch on misogyny directly, but proportionate tone would make the place more welcoming.

You do realize that both defending and the prescriptive grammarian pedantry also results in the same type invalidation on this topic as Starving Artists posts.

The irony of this post is not humorous kind.

I certainly never meant to invalidate anyone’s experiences. I’m one of the women sharing my experiences and reporting problematic posts. But I’m also one that is thinking I need a break from the board.

Blob, I apologise for my “bickering.” I certainly never meant to offend you or anyone else.

I am not a moderator, but from my view the heartbreaking part of the problem with rape and sexual assault is that for the most part is pervasive because the high costs and impacts are hidden from view.

Please don’t hesitate to take care of yourself but share with us if you can. It is only through the courage and effort of people like you that others like me will learn how to be a part of the solution.

Thank you for sharing what you have.

My sharing has been relatively mild. I’m not comfortable going into nitty gritty details, even this far, temporally, removed. Others have shared far more, with honesty that shakes me to the core, and I applaud them.

I can only speak from my own experiences. Outside of movies and books the only time I heard about it at all was due during the satanic ritual abuse panic of the 1980s. I heard the rape myths a lot though, but had no access to more realistic information.

I didn’t intend infer you need to share anything that personal, but chose terms poorly. Sharing a perspective and checking assumptions helps with fighting ignorance.

Lets just say the observation that “my female friends seem to really like John Cusack films” doesn’t mesh well with larger desire to be a decent human being. I’ll pit myself and share that life lesson some day.

I think part of the problem with the issue that we’re facing is that the whole definition of misogyny and rape culture, etc… are still somewhat in the process of being defined. Or maybe redefined, or at the very least, brought into the open as a cultural phenomenon. That’s why the whole #METOO and Kavanaugh hearings are such a hot topic in recent months. If it was a foregone conclusion within society, like say… pedophilia, there wouldn’t be anywhere near so much controversy.

So for large chunks of the population, this ISN’T nearly the done deal that a whole lot of people on the SDMB have decided that it is (if it was, there wouldn’t be any debate!). That’s the echo chamber nature of the place at work- the majority of the people here have made up their mind a certain way, and now are advocating that anyone who essentially fails to toe the party line about certain topics should get banned.

I disagree. I think it’s too early for some of these topics to be automatically banned. However, I do wholeheartedly agree that trollish behavior and general assholery should be vigorously modded. I mean, if someone can get into a thread and discuss the other side of the issue without trolling or being a giant ass, then they should be allowed to do so. Their words will speak for themselves, and who knows- maybe they’ll get their mind changed. It’s happened to me on a few things during my tenure here.

I realize that takes a certain kind of poster who’s at least willing to consider the other side without assuming they’re automatically and necessarily wrong. I also think that posters who do think that way (think the other side is automatically and necessarily wrong) tend also to be assholes about it, and that’s where the moderation effort should fall.

I’m pretty opposed to making the SDMB a safe space or enhancing the echo chamber aspects of it any more than they already are; banning topics that are controversial at this very moment in national life because one side doesn’t line up with the prevailing opinion of the board seems very much like censorship to me, and I don’t like it. I’d much rather a jerk be able to come in and espouse his viewpoint, no matter how odious, as long as he stays within the boundaries of good behavior as a poster (topic or view choice notwithstanding), and let people draw their own conclusions. We shouldn’t be in the business of pushing a particular viewpoint, but rather letting the discussion have its own life, with both sides vigorously expounding their points.

And we should also be careful to not confuse spin-off topics with the actual topic, or conflating expressing concern about the spin-off topics with endorsement of the actual topic. Being concerned about people being crucified in the court of public opinion and wondering to what extent someone’s teenage stupidity is going to be allowed to bite someone in the future is NOT condoning sexual assault or misogyny anything like that. It’s important that a line be drawn on both of those- what other things should people be pilloried for some 40+ years later, and what should be attributed to youthful stupidity and ignorance? And also where/how much do life experience and changes and/or redemption come into it? Or is someone who does this kind of thing at 17 forever damned? Discussing that doesn’t equate to legitimizing or condoning misogyny or rape either.

There’s a lot of fertile discussion ground here, and I think automatically disqualifying the topic misses out on a lot of that. We should be here for intellectual stimulation and new points of view, and automatically banning the topics instead of moderating obnoxious individual posters is kind of like the opposite tack.

Is there any way to put a halt to the continual hijacking of the subject of female genital mutilation, the most recent example being this thread? I’m not usually one for restricting access to all voices, but when there is a deliberate and concerted effort to turn any and/or all threads on this subject into a thread on the problems a small percentage of males have with circumcision then, frankly, I really wouldn’t mind being banned along with those other males from the next thread that is supposed to be about FGM. In my opinion, some of the posts in that thread seem to be trollish in their efforts to belittle a very real problem.

I concur. At the best, it’s “whataboutism”- at the worst, male misogynist trolling.

I don’t want to speak for the other moderators except to say that the solution should be to report it, make your case, and see what happens.

I, at least, might look on that as something worth doing. But I don’t speak for any of the other moderators.

Was reported…but I have a feeling that doing such isn’t as complete a solution as might be hoped-the evidence being this thread, which was started by a moderator.

Do you mean generally or specifically? I’m having trouble imagining how this would even occur without an odd series of events in which one poster specifically announces they are trans, and that they prefer a particular pronoun, and then some other poster seeing this and immediately defying their wishes to be intentionally spiteful. In which case, it already falls under personal insults. If we are talking generally, there is no universal pronoun for trans people, so I’m having trouble seeing how that would happen. Is this a common occurrence here, or a vague Boogeyman?

It’s also possible to misgender people who aren’t posters here…

Well, we have at least one person on the forum I can name who is out as a transgender individual, and I could easily see the right kind of spiteful dick calling her a man because they were assigned male at birth. Exactly the same kind of spiteful dick might refer to Caitlyn Jenner as “he” or imply that Michelle Obama is a transgender person because of whatever stupid fucking reasons (indeed, a poster got banned just the other day for exactly that; good riddance to bad rubbish).