I’m not picking on him because he’s frustrated by folks who engage in intentional phonetic misspellings. I’m picking on him because he, unlike you, was speaking necessarily about young black folks. And he apparently knew that was a problematic thing to do, because he put “urban” in quotes–using, in his own words, codespeak.
At the point where you find yourself singling out young black people for derision, based on what you perceive as a cultural characteristic, you need to check yourself. If you hesitate to say it clearly without codespeak, maybe it’s a rotten idea to say it in the first place.
Would you feel the same way if I were to complain about "rich white folks (or wannabe rich white folks) who continually pronounce the “t” in “often” and say “at the present time” instead of “now”? It’s exactly the same kind of affectation, and I personally don’t see any difference between the two.
I think you’re overthinking it and being overly sensitive. Political correctness is all well and good, but there is certain slang that has been adopted by a certain social subset, and it may not be entirely comprehensible to outsiders, and they have chosen to include it in their writing. If Texas rednecks started writing using their particular slang, it could be just as unintelligible.
Oh, to test the bounds of political correctness, I think we’re getting a little off the reservation here. But thanks for playing, and you can keep the duck.
Both are a bit peculiar. Only one is a proud (or, in the case of codespeak, not-so-proud) legacy of a history of violent and pervasive discrimination. So no, I wouldn’t feel the same way, because I don’t insist on divorcing analysis of a situation from its history.
That’s not what codespeak means, but that’s the lesser of your misunderstandings. To answer your first sentence, are you kidding? THat’s really what you got from what I said?
Look, I don’t know if Earl is black or white. He doesn’t get a pass from me, because I’m not issuing passes to speakers based on their skin color.
I am saying that there are two traditions (at least) of making fun of people in our country based on racial characteristics. Both, as I said, are peculiar, and maybe “obnoxious” would be a better word than “peculiar.”
One tradition–making fun of white people–carries with it a satirical edge sometimes, but otherwise doesn’t really have much of a tradition.
One tradition–making fun of black people–is part of the tradition of racial injustice, of denying black people equal participation in society through discriminatory practices.
Does anyone get a pass? Well, yeah: people making fun of white people’s speech (whether the mocker is black or white) get a pass other than often being a bit obnoxious. They’re not participating in a rotten tradition.
Really, this stuff isn’t complicated. You have the power to figure it out yourself, Malacandra.
You misunderstood what I meant by “codespeak” - I was imputing codespeak to you because it seemed to me that you were not speaking plainly when you talked about a “proud (or, in the case of codespeak, not-so-proud) legacy of a history of violent and pervasive discrimination”.
Also, I have the power to parse multi-sentence paragraphs, should the need arise again. In particular, I understand that you are saying “Mocking white people’s speech? Obnoxious, but as you please. Mocking black people’s? Not cool, bro,” for reasons not unconnected with slavery and its after-effects.
Actually what I found funny was Mister Rik’s assertion that pronouncing the t in often could be seen as an affectation. Where I come from, it’s the accepted educated pronunciation. There are two kinds of people who elide the t; the uneducated who slur everything, and the slightly antiquated people who pronounce Ralph as “Rafe”, Malcolm as “Morecombe” and golf as “goff”, who (like the Pirate King and Major-General Stanley) pronounce “often - frequently” the same as “orphan - a person who has lorst his parents”. Nations divided by a common language, and all that.
No, I didn’t misunderstand. You the word in a way inconsistent with majority usage–or else you are suggesting I was intentionally obfuscating, which is even stupider. Own it, dude.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. How do you move from that to giving black people a pass? Are you under the misapprehension that white people only mock black people and black people only mock white people or something?
Speaking of which, this grandmother (college educated, raised in California) would always correct us if we pronounced “Grandma” without the “d” or if we dropped the “g” from the end of “-ing” words.
Other grandmother, high school education, raised in Virginia, would hear us pronouncing those d’s and g’s, and tell us to “Stop that, it sounds silly!”
Here’s another one to get people riled up over. The plural ending -ae is properly pronounced long e (as in eek) in pupae, larvae, antennae, etc. It’s right here in my Thorndike Barnhart Advanced dictionary, as the ONLY pronunciation, so that makes it a fact. This was also stressed by all my college biology profs as well.
I still don’t get how people get zoo-ology out of zoology. There aren’t enough Os there.
Not to hijack this thread, but I heard an interesting ESL construction back when I worked in a call center. A native Indian speaker (from India Indian, not Native American) was calling to change her flight reservations. Now, we all know what “postpone” means – delay a trip. But she wanted to fly sooner than scheduled, so she called to “prepone” her trip. I completely understood what she meant & thought it was a very creative construction.
Interesting. I hadn’t heard “prepone” before, but Wiktionary seems to suggest that this is a word in the (or a) Indian dialect of English. I know I’ve heard other interesting constructions and words in Indian flavors of English, but I can’t quite come up with examples right this second. Although, Wikipedia seems to have a good collection towards the bottom. “Prepone” is one of the words listed, too.
I’ll own to not having “codespeak” part of my regular vocabulary, which I guess renders my inability to use it consistent with majority usage entirely explicable without having to drag in stupidity, but it seems the sentence I queried did indeed mean exactly what I thought it meant, so that’s that cleared up.
Not at all; for instance, and without looking back through this thread to see whom you have been mocking, I neither know nor give a rodent’s rectum whether you yourself are black, white or a delicate shade of coppery gold.
I’d stay and talk more, but I think the tap’s dripping.
I was not trying to give a full rundown on the word, merely address the two specific cases mentioned.
Sorry, that’s just not the kind of thing that sticks in my memory. It may or may not cause an actual case of confusion. Usually, the confusion is minor enough that ultimately, it just creates the impression of what happened without the explicit example remaining. I suck at movie quotes, too.
Odd, I don’t find any generalization that corresponds to these.
For example, my parents, sibs, and I (all whom you might call wannabe rich white folks) don’t pronounce the ‘t’, but my 32-year0old son (a bartender, regular guy, and someone who has a very big vocabulary but can hardly spell his way out of a paper bag) pronounces it. I know a number of other folks who do, but can’t find any common factor among them.
Both pronunciations are acceptable; one is just older. Do you know which?
The ‘t’ was pronounced, when the spelling was standardized. However, most people were illiterate. The ‘t’ was gradually elided, but the spelling was retained. Pronuncing the ‘t’ isn’t a new thing; it’s an old one.
People who repeatedly say stuff like “at the present time” are just people who want to sound educated (but didn’t really get the clue).
A bit OT perhaps, but I admit it bugs me when people use “dichotomy” when they mean “dilemma” or “contradiction”. It was a perfectly good and useful word with a fairly specific meaning. But in the last decade, it’s surged in popularity with meanings that are better conveyed with different words.
If your high school experience included Latin class, you pronounce it as in English “pie,” and think those biologists are a bunch of yahoos. If your high school or college experience included advance botany or biology, you pronounce it as in English “see,” and you think those Latin scholars are a bunch of nerdy pedants.
Own yo’ momma. Or explain the fine shade of distinction between “I think Black people are not to be mocked” and “Black people get a pass from me”. Or just drop the whole silly subject and let people get on with enjoying the thread.
This was also stressed by all my college biology profs as well.