Or, even, “threw 24 straight pitches that weren’t called balls,” as it’s entirely possible that one or more of the pitches on which a batter made contact would have been called a ball if the batter hadn’t swung.
So presumably the strikes were determined by a machine, not the umpire, right? The umpire wouldn’t call a ball or strike on a foul ball or a hit. In that case, we could only have this stat for a few short years.
No idea, but see the last two comments for what might be a more accurate description of the stat.
Those are “strikes.” Getting a batter to swing at something outside the strike zone is one of the ways a pitcher gets the credit for a strike.
Yes, I was about to say something similar. I think some of you are overthinking this. The pitcher’s job is to “throw strikes,” and if he can get the batter to swing at something out of the zone, that counts.
But not a foul ball on a two strike count even if it’s clearly in the strike zone. It looks like there weren’t any of those in this particular game however.
Of course. But, for this bizarre little stat, it seems to be specifically a matter of “strike” being defined as “a pitch that does not get called a ball by the umpire.” Hits are strikes, foul balls with two strikes in the count would still be strikes, etc.
At the Mariners ballpark there is a pitch count display. Every pitch is either a ball or a strike. Foul balls are listed as strikes.
That’s the definition for all stats that I’m aware of, not just “consecutive strikes thrown.” The fact that it doesn’t count as “strike three, you’re out” does not make it less of a strike.
A question for baseball experts re Ohtani.
I get he’s probably the most talented player in the game, and the only one who can pitch and hit at a very high-level, but with the DH in play, does he have that much value to a team? Sure, he can pitch and bat in a game, but another team can just put a DH in to replace the pitcher in the batting lineup. Ohtani is a good DH, and a very good pitcher.
So, yes, Ohtani is ‘two players in one’ (when he pitches). But he doesn’t add an extra player to the lineup - opponents can just play two players in their team (pitcher and DH) to match Ohtani when he pitches and hits.
So, how do you vaue him? What is the worth of a two-way player?
Obviously, if he was playing in the NL prior to the DH introduction, he would undoubtedly be the most valuable player in the game. If there was a salary cap, he would probably be the highest paid player in the game. And he is great to watch.
I doubt that. If he were playing in the NL prior to the DH introduction, he’d only get to bat once every five games, and even then usually not for a full game.
If there were no DH, his team would likely have used him as an outfielder, to allow him to bat on days he wasn’t pitching; last year, he played a little bit of outfield in 2021 (7 games, 8 1/3 innings, probably the result of double-switches during interleague games at NL ballparks). He’s too valuable, as a hitter, to limit him to only batting when he’s also the pitcher.
Ohtani is one of the greatest players in the game right now, and you need to sit in the corner and think about what you did. Go! Git!
Unfortunately for the Angels, their team is made up of Mike Trout, Shohei Ohtani, and seven guys who suck.
So, looking at Baseball Reference, and Ohtani’s “Wins over Replacement” (WAR) stats…
In 2021, when he won the AL MVP award, he had a WAR, as a batter, of 4.9. Conceptually, that means that his team won 4.9 games more, over the course of the season, than they would have with their best batter in the minors replacing him in the lineup. Typically, if a batter achieves a 5+ WAR for a season, he’s hitting at an All-Star level.
In addition, he had a WAR of 4.1 as a pitcher in 2021, despite only pitching in 23 games.
So, yes, he really does have that much value. Last year, he provided the Angels with essentially an All-Star caliber batter, as well as something close to All-Star caliber pitching. Sure, the opposing team can “match” him with a separate pitcher and a separate DH in their lineup, but in many cases, Ohtani will be better than the opposing starting pitcher, and better than the opposing DH.
This year, with a little over a month left in the season, he has a WAR of 2.5 as a batter, and 3.7 as a pitcher; he’ll add to those numbers a bit more in the next few weeks, but even with his hitting not as good in '22 as it was in '21, he’s still a quality starter both as a hitter and as a pitcher.
Indeed; if you subtract the batting WAR for Ohtani (2.5) and Trout (4.0) from the Angels, their overall team WAR would be 0.1 – in other words, their entire lineup, overall, is performing no better than their replacements from the minors. The Angels only have three other batters (Taylor Ward, Luis Rengifo, and Andrew Velasquez) who have WARs above 1 right now.
This, exactly.
If a batter receives a base on balls after a 10-pitch at bat, that means four of the ten pitches were balls. By definition, then, the other six pitches must have been strikes.
First off, no. Secondly, absolutely not.
Another team doesn’t simply just “play two players to match Ohtani”. Finding a hitter as good as Ohtani is is HARD. Finding a pitcher who is as good as Ohtani is is HARD. This isn’t two-way threat Brett Phillips we’re talking about, we’re talking about someone doing both skills at a TREMENDOUSLY high level.
Finally, we can talk about how the increase to the active roster size makes this less meaningful, but spots on the active roster are extremely valuable. Watch the Dodgers manipulate their roster between the MLB and AAA to maximize their bench spots. They do it because 26 players is a really tight fit when playing major league games these days. When you can combine two roles into 1 roster spot, it’s an unbelievable value to that team.
Agreed that what Ohtani is doing is remarkable, and pretty much unprecedented (at least since Ruth maybe).
But @Wallaby does have a good point (which you also spell out here) which is that it’s not exactly like having an 9 WAR pitcher. What you gain from having one player that is a 4 WAR hitter and a 4-5 WAR is worth quite a bit less than a 8-9 WAR hitter, IMO, because opponents can try to find two players to match those stats.
In general, having players that are 6+ WAR guys is more valuable than a bunch of 3-4 WAR guys, if I remember the analysis correctly.
Now Ohtani is valuable, no doubt. But I’d rather have, for example, Nolan Arenado (6.6 WAR) and a league average pitcher (WAR of zero) than Ohtani. Maybe I’m wrong about that… but that’s my hunch.
I guess this is true, but I struggle to quantify it. Because you also consolidate your risk a bit - if Ohtani gets hurt now you need a starter and a hitter.
I dunno, he’s definitely valuable and one of the super-stars of the game. And so much fun to watch. But I still think I’d rather have a player that gets that 8 WAR in one position and then try to find a second player to improve my team.
Here’s the list of 2021 offensive WAR leaders. Again, finding players of this caliber is HARD.
Edit: and yeah - I guess that makes finding an Ohtani even harder, which is obvious. If I was building a team, and things like age or contract lengths weren’t a concern, he’d be at the top of my list. He’s so unique, and adds so much to a team, I’d do everything I could to add him. And I bet his value-add from a marketing perspective is off the charts as well.
That may be, but there just aren’t many such players.
In 2021, there were 13 batters with a 6+ bWAR, meaning that over half of MLB teams didn’t have even one. There were only 20 with a 5+ WAR.
On the pitching side, there were only 3 pitchers with a 6+ WAR, and 13 with a 5+.