Oh, you with the face, I didn’t really anwer your question. i took your comment to mean that you support the approach of fighting racism rather than promoting individual success. That the POV I was inviting you to support.
You misunderstand me utterly. I don’t mean APAs aren’t offered the things that businesses and educational institutions offer minorities. I mean they may not be offered the things that EVERYONE gets. I in no way meant they don’t get what you must think of as coddling.
The role of mentoring in fostering success is a concept well-supported in business–and yes, for the success of whites, blacks, women, ANYONE. Same with being paid to go get an MBA or being sent to a seminar to brush up on skills. I’m saying that any person which is mistakenly seen to be some sort of “superman” may not be offered those, because they are assumed to not need them. That is not necessarily a sound assumption, especially when you’re talking about being able to reach the upper echelons of management, sit on boards, etc.
OK, I understand. In my 30+ years in business I have seen discrimination like this from time to time. But, it wasn’t due to thinking the person didn’t need it. It was due to old-fashioned prejudice.
There’s a difference between knowing the world isn’t fair and knowing when you’re being discriminated against. In these days of subtle, undercover racism, the likelihood of being unaware of discrimination has increased. Back in the 60’s, it was quite reasonable to assume that every white person in Georgia was a racist to some extent. Now that things are a-changing, it’s not quite so reasonable to believe that. The result is that it becomes harder to detect when discrimination takes. It becomes very easy to let your guard down.
Like I said earlier, rarely is mistreatment an obvious kind of thing nowadays. Unlike back in the 60’s, when little kids were getting hosed down in the streets by cops, today it is much easier to rationalize unfairness. Rationalize it so much that it doesn’t seem unfair at all.
Note that perpetuating racism can be approached in two fundamentally different ways: give in to stereotypes or pretend that racism doesn’t exist.
And what, pray tell, gave you that impression? Or you unable to conceive of someone being cognizant of the glass ceiling phenomenon while simultaneously being a proponent of hard work and assertiveness? Why are these either-or things for you?
I think you’re missing my point, motivated doesn’t necessarily mean intelligent. If you take the school age children of all recent immigrants(Africa, China, Pakistan, India, Russia, etc) to this country, what you would probably see is the same curve for all of them in more or less equal porportions, some at the top, a lot in the middle and some at the bottom. I don’t think Asians hold model minority status, I think immigrants as a whole are more motivated than people that have been here for a while i.e. more than two generations.
Right, when I ran a company I got cheated and lied to mostly by white people(this actually happened). Can I assume that white people are not trustworthy? I can, but that would be stupid.
The average black student is already equal to the average white student, the PROBLEM is that the schools and the opportunities within them tend not to be. I know that may be a little abstract for you, so this is what I suggest you do; got to a average white school and look at the facilities and the resources then go to an average black school which will be in an inner city neighborhood, and do the same, you’ll see what I mean.
december, it’s not just on the person that’s the target of discrimination and racism, it’s also on YOU and everyone like you, to do their part i.e. take personal responsibility, to make sure discrimination and bigotry isn’t tolerated. The moment that happens is when racism and discrimination will cease to exist.
I’ll throw in the LGBT slant with this article written for the San Diego Gay & Lesbian Times:
http://www.gaylesbiantimes.com/asp/nm2/templates/feature.asp?articleid=573&zoneid=10
Esprix
They aren’t necessarily either-or, although the fact that resources are limited means that one may sometimes not have enough time and money to do both. Sometimes they are contradictory. Consider affirmative action and Black Studies.
Someone who is a proponent of achieving equality through individual success would oppose affirmative action and oppose offering Black Studies. These are ways to institutionalize lack of equal success. Instead, he would provide the resources for black students to perform equally to whites. I take EasyPhil’s point that “average black student is already equal to the average white student,” by which he means equal in potential. However, the results of the schools are not equal. Differences in facilities and resources are not the whole answer. Achieving equal results demands a total commitment to do whatever it takes to get equal results. That might involve ending the tenure system, extending class hours to the entire year, throwing out trendy educational methods that don’t work, forcing parents to get more involved, offering tuition vouchers to every student, or other radical ideas.
EasyPhil says we should take personal responsibility, to make sure discrimination and bigotry isn’t tolerated. That’s an admirable goal. To me, offering inner city education in a way that produces such unequal results is a way of tolerating discrimination.
On one side, ** december’s ** POV is that the way to fight prejudice and stereotyping is for individuals to strive for their own success. But, why should that preclude raising awareness that AAs are not superhuman, that they should be able to recognize when they are being discriminated against, that the discriminator recognizes this too, that they be treated on a level field, and that despite having significant educational success, (SATs and college admissions) until recently, very few were at the top. Wouldn’t positives come from both individual strife and raising group awareness?
Moving from the middle-upper-middle to the lower rung, here’s an article that I think might be a tangible effect of the Model Minority Myth. http://www.chooseandrew.com/press/082902_1.php
It says that Asians are at the very end of government services in health care, and housing and development. There are other examples quoted too, all of which points to the notion that the Myth needs to be dispelled publicly and loudly. But, where’s the voice?
Lost in the discussion on how minorities improve their standing is a key component of the MMM, which is the silence of AAs. Either we accept that the MMM has played a part in “silencing” the community and we try and do something about it, or we just assume that in a matter of few generations, we will hear Asian political and media voices. But, the voicelessness of the Asian community is intriguing and deserves inspection.
** John Mace **
Surely, there are positive lessons the apparent 
success of AAs can teach other minorities. But strangely enough, that itself is part of this debate, i.e., whether said perception of positives are actually mythical and hence have negative repercussions.
teaches other minorities
Please ignore the last stray line
Litost:
It is not mythical that Asians have overcome many of the same hurdles of prejudice that many minorities face. I wouldn’t expect them to “teach” other minorities. My point is that I would be a lot more sympathetic to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton if I saw them actively studying the success story of Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese immigrants to this country.
Yo, Jesse! How about meeting for Dim Sum this weekend…
You expect a call from them whenever they venture into Chinatown?
How about you expect the same out of white leadership, particularly from those poor whites who blame blacks for all their problems? After all, the MMM puts Asians ahead of whites in terms of academic achievement and scholarship. I know it’s so tempting for us to put us blacks down, but COME ON. If not for Jesse or Sharpton, people wouldn’t have an evil black face to throw darts at all the time.
Even in a damn thread about Asians, black people are the core topic of discussion. Anyone else see the irony in this?
Monstro:
How quick to lash out!
One of the key topics of this thread was whether the “model minority” myth was used by white folks to keep other minorities down. Did you read the OP? Let me quote the very first issue that was asked to be discussed:
"(1) This was perpetuated by the white (conservative?) establishment as a way to prove their case, especially to the black community, that American society was indeed a level playing field. (Affirmative action) "
As for Jesse, I merely made the suggestion that he might try to learn something from another group that had experienced racism and that appeared to be doing better in fighting it. And once again, the proposition of this thread was that “white leaders” spend TOO MCU TIME lecturing other minorites about the “model minority”. Jesse can call up Chinatown as many or as few times as he wants. He would be taken more seriously if he made that phone call at least once.
I am not X-ray. I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on Litost has asked.
Um…not really but whatever.
Of course I did. I always do. If you look on the first page, I was one of the first to respond.
You assume that the man hasn’t. You assume that you know how he’s been educated in the Movement. And you also assume that looking at Asians will help the battle against the injustices against black Americans. We have been fighting for civil and human rights a lot longer than Asian Americans have. In doing so, we also have paved the way for them. During the 60s, many margnilized groups looked to black Americans as a role model. People think “black power”, but they either forget or don’t know that when blacks were marching, white women, Native Americans, Chicanos, and even poor whites were marching along side them for THEIR rights. So forgive me if I don’t see what you mean by Jesse Jackson needing to look to the Asians. While they are both minorities, their issues are dissimilar. Their political strategies are different. The context in which most of their constituents are living in are different. The fact that one has positive stereotypes while they other has negative ones makes them very different.
Asian Americans are virtually invisible on the political scene. This is NOT a good strategy for black Americans, IMHO. The last time blacks were invisible, everyone thought Jim Crow was just fine and dandy. Why? Because everyone thought the nigras were happy and content. Eventually they raised a loud voice and the world finally saw that slavery wasn’t over yet.
It would help if you were to say WHY you think Jesse or Sharpton could learn a lot from Asian Americans. Maybe this would help me understand where the hell you’re coming from.
Right! So why are you doing the same thing? Do you not see how annoying this behavior is?
Again, why? You’re assuming that the Chinese–and no one else–have some special secret that black people–and no one else–need. If the Chinese are so wonderful, why shouldn’t EVERYONE benefit from their holy teachings? Oh, I understand now. Blacks–being the Worse Minority–should try to be like the Best Minority. Well, we’ve been trying to be the best for a long time. I don’t think our lack of effort is what’s keeping us down.
Plus, I don’t think anything Jesse can do will make people take him seriously.
Of course. However, I did notice you spending an inordinate amount of time in the other thread talking to him as if he was a rational and intelligent poster. I have to admit; my opinion of you as a poster dropped because of it.
I have already. Why not expound a little on your thoughts?
by monstro:
I do. But then again, I’m not surprised. Black people are a hot topic in these here parts. People can’t get enough of 'em.
by John Mace:
How do you know what Jesse and Al do in their spare time when they are not making love to the cameras and microphones? Really, do you know see how silly your argument sounds? “If I saw them actively studying the success story…” Are they supposed to get on NBC news and broadcast how they’re boning up on Asian-American history? You do realize that would be the only way you’d know anything about what they’ve researched, right?
So is your stance that “white leaders” don’t spend ENOUGH TIME lecturing other minorities about the model minority? Because that’s exactly what you seem to advocating.
Right. And I’m sure he’ll call you up and tell you when he does, John.
Monstro:
I talk to everyone rationally. If it gets me nowhere after awhile I’ll just give up talking to them-- I don’t know any other way, other than talking rationally, to communicate ideas. I was curious to see if I could get one teansy thread of rationality out of our buddy, x-ray, but I failed. I haven’t encountered too many people as oblivous to logic as he is.
On the topic of this thread, it seems we simply disagree. You’ve stated that there is nothing to be learned by other minorities, or at least by Blacks, from the apparent success of one particular minority. I have no other reason to suspect that there might be something to be learned other than the fact that Asians have experienced racial discrimination, and yet have, as a whole, prospered. If you looked at my earlier posts, you’ll see that I stated that I thought Hispanics, especially, could learn something since the parallels are much greater.
I mean it’s pretty simple: Group A is struggling. Group B is struggling for similar reasons, but seems to be doing pretty well. Group A should examine what Group B is doing to see if there is something to be learned.
And as for our friend, Jesse, well I’ve heard him speak many, many times and I have never once heard him talk about lessons learned from the Asian experience. But perhaps I am wrong. If you know of somewhere I can look to see his views on the subject, let me know-- I’d love to read it.
John, there’s only one group of people in this country that were slaves and that were legally determined to be less than human, and that’s black people. In the 1960’s that had to call out the national guard to enforce integration laws, because the people that were sworn to uphold the law refused to do it because of their hatred of black people. What other group has this happened to? If hatred and subjection of black people wasn’t a way life in this country, don’t you think things would be different? Asians have been descriminated against, but check this out, asian babies are being adopted by white couples in far greater numbers than black babies? Why is that?
Certainly Blacks have had the worst deal of all the minorities in the US by far. No argument there. But what other minority lost their possessions, were herded into camps for several years, and then dumped back on the street to fend for themselves. Could it have been the Japanese? And which minority was actually able to wrest $$ from the US governement for being illegally discriminated against? Same guys. No lessons to be learned wrt slavery reparations? I guess I’m just blind.
But let’s talk about Hispanics (the group I originally said were had the most similar experience). Hispanics, like Asians, came to the US in great numbers as laborers and farm workers, mainly in the west, both with strong family structures and heritage. Both groups were treated very poorly, and probably about the same. Both groups could not assimilate like, say the Irish or Italians, because of the color of their skin. No lessons to be learned there? I must be blind on that one, too.
As for the adoption issue, I’d guess (and it’s only a guess) it is probably in large part because of the “model minority myth”.
I’m sure I’ll get slammed for saying this, but if I were Black and struggling and getting nowhere, I’d camp my ass down in Chinatown to figure out what the hell those guys were doing! It’s not the ONLY thing I’d do, but it’d be up there on the priority list. (And for those who take averything literally, I’m speaking metaphorically in this last paragraph.)
But then the inequality in success would be a product of inequality of education.
The question is, are these students getting shafted because they are poor, or because they are black.
The disparity, IHMO, is not racism. It’s descrimination against a socio-economic sector of society. That the poorer sections of our cities happen to be populated by African-Americans is an unfortunate effect of traditional undereducation of the poor. Race has nothing to do with it.