Of course. But that is irrelevant: 1) slavery is gone for 150 years. If you can find a 150-year-old, maybe he is a candidate for reparations (which is what you seem to be supporting). But there aren’t. 2) The second phase (so to speak) of discrimination happens against Asians as well as others. However, as I said, Asians very much dislike having hissy-fits, preferring to simply plow ahead.
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What other group has this happened to? If hatred and subjection of black people wasn’t a way life in this country, don’t you think things would be different?
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This applies to every minority (and white people too, depending on what section you look at). Don’t be so simple-minded as to assume that just because they make the biggest fuss about it, black people are treated worst. They’re not unusually ill-treated.
That I can’t answer 100% accurately. One reason is that the adopt-an-asian advertising campaign is stronger than the adopt-a-black campaign. Or it could be because of the stereotypes, yes. So? What’s your point?
One must remember that the term “Asian” is very inaccurate; it is not the same as calling black people “African”. In the latter case, the various cultures have, in the US, anyway, been somewhat assimilated. Whereas, Asian cultures are very distinct and separate. One way to separate is to use the following groupings:
-China, Japan, Taiwan, and Korea
-SE Asia and India
-Former USSR countries
-Mongolia
-Islamic countries (remember, the ME is in Asia too)
There are few international countries (none with the agency we went through) where the predominant race is black that allow international adoption. Many African countries have laws heavily influenced by Islam, and many (though not all) variations of Islam disapprove of adoption. So, if you, like us, make the international adoption decision, your options to adopt a Black child are less than the options in adopting an Asian child. There are also UN regulations regarding adoption, and international adoption requires a certain amount of stability in government, that makes several African nations ineligible to place their children outside of their country. However, most countries require you to be open to race. Children come out of Korea (our choice) that are Asian-American - BirthDad is a US soldier, and often these kids are Asian-African-American. Kids come out of the countries of the former Eastern Block in a variety of shades as well (although your chances of getting a blue eyed blond are better than going through Korea).
As to domestic adoption - it carries its own issues. In our case, had we chosen to adopt domestically, we would have been open to race - however, we weren’t willing to go through an open adoption where a birthmother picks the parents for her child, and didn’t want the long wait associated with domestic adoption of a healthy infant (although I dearly wish for the part of open adoption where we have contact with my son’s birthmom). (There is also somewhat less drug and alcohol abuse among young women in Korea, and the prenatal care is often as good (and sometimes better) than is often gotten by young unmarried women in the US).
There are some additional issues. Any white couple choosing to raise a minority child will have challenges - I can only intellectectualize the racism my son is likely to experience. An Asian child is perceived to have fewer of these issues than a Black child - making the challenges a little easier for both child and parent. Some parents choose to avoid these issues altogther, and look to adopt a white child. I don’t believe this is necessiarly racism (though in some cases, it certainly is) - I chose not to adopt a special needs child, not because I’m biased against the handicapped, but because I didn’t feel I was up to the challenge to choose to parent a special needs child.
My point to you is this (and EasyPhil already touched on this):
Asian Americans don’t hold some secret to success. That certain Asian groups value education and entreprenuership is not some mystical concept that has to be studied. EVERYONE KNOWS THIS.
Like I said, black Americans have been here a lot longer than Asians. We have known the “secrets” to success ever since Plymouth Rock landed on us. We have always valued education. We have always made a big deal about starting businesses and becoming economically independent. But thirty-forty years ago, most black people were not in a situation where they could achieve these goals, and it had nothing to do with them not working hard enough. Do you not realize that black Generation Xers represent the first generation to have experienced life truly “free”? Does this mean nothing to you?
Black Americans have had a whole lot more shit heaped upon them than Asian Americans. This is undeniable. And this is a distinction that should not be taken lightly. I feel that that’s what you are doing.
I’m sorry, but this is just plain rude and wrong.
Was race important twenty years ago? Thirty years ago? Forty years ago? When did it start being so inconsequential? From my perspective, race has always mattered.
When black folks even think of thinking of the word “reparation” they are met with heaps of scorn and vitriol, so what is your point?
Most Asian- and Hispanic-Americans are the products of recent immigration. You’re trying to make it seem as if they started from the same position, but they really didn’t. The average Chinese immigrant coming to this country in the mid to late part of the 20th century was in a different economic position than the average Mexican immigrant.
What are these lessons that you speak of? And are you positive that you aren’t comparing apples and oranges here? Someone who has enough money to fly over here and set up residence probably is better off than someone who gets here by traversing the border on foot (risking vigilante gun-fire while at it), don’t you think?
Pippins and Golden Delicious, mabye, but not Apples and Oranges. Neither one of us is quoting statistics about Asian vs Hispanic imigrants, but for every story you bring about Mexicans hoofing it across the boarder, I can show you one about Chinese shipping over here in cargo containers and Vietamese boat people languishing in refugee camps for years before making it over here. I’m not convinced that Asians, as a whole, are better off when they get here than Hispanics.
I honestly don’t know what the lessons to be learned are. I just look at the results and don’t understand why that concept is dismissed so quickly, as in the OP, as Whitey just trying to keep minorities down. Seems like a cop out to just say, Oh, they’re totatlly different, there’s nothing that applies. And, once again, I’m not saying this is THE answer to ALL the problems of minorities in this country.
The model minority concept should be dismissed because it leads people to making erroneous assumptions about Asians. For instance, the economic status of Vietnamese and Japanese immigrants are not equal in this country; one group suffers from a disproportionate amount of poverty and the other does not. So when you group these two ethnicities together and say, “Look at how well they are doing. Be like them!” reality is distorted and wrong conclusions are reached.
It is insulting to treat minorities like children competing for the affections of the mainstream. Each group has their own histories, and they’ve all come from different places. Treating one like the favored child and encouraging the other children to follow in their footsteps only invites resentment and divisiveness.
When this “encouragement” comes from someone who has the luxury of kibitzing on the sidelines as if they know better than the people who are actually in the foxholes and trenches (so to speak), then expect the advice to be ignored.
Wherever the various groups are right now, where they will end up in the future will depend, to a great degree, on one thing: How many children are born into “households” headed by poor, young, single women.
Maybe this is just too much of a “cultural” issue, and we all know how hard it is to change a culture. But guess which group has the highest and which group has the lowest number of children growing up in the above circumstances. (And it ain’t whitey with the lowest…)
I had a lot to say about this subject, but I have to remember that the majority of people are posting on this thread from the mainland, (that is to say the contenital U.S of A) Here in Hawaii things are a lot different.
Example you can’t just say “Asian” here. Asian what? Thai? Filipino? (Who if you want to do a site with Hispanic Vs. “Asian” would be the best place to start.) When you say Japanese do you mean “Local Japanese” (who aside from a few cutural traditions and the last name, have hardly any ties to Japan.) or Japanese who have moved here? Mix plate Chinese (ones mixed with Chinese and other enthicities like Hawaiian and/or Filipino) or 2nd or 3ed generaton Chinese?
When you have MANY different Asians living in one place, You With The Face assesment tends to be more correct.
As for Monstro, I think what he was saying (eariler anyway) is that if a black person works hard and suceeds,people like X-Ray will still think of him/her as a nigger and a low class minority. If an Asian suceeds, then it’s looked upon as “natural.” Up to a point that is.When top coporate ladder positions come into play, well…
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*Originally posted by you with the face *
**by monstro:
I do. But then again, I’m not surprised. Black people are a hot topic in these here parts. People can’t get enough of 'em.
I have noticed this as of late. Exactly why is that? Was it since the attempted takeover from those stormfront idiots?
I remember when I used to just be a lurker (even though I’ve been here since early 2001, and actullay way before that because I lost my original user name) The only post I ever saw about race before that was one where we discussed “minorities who act like other minorities” (or something) and I posted a brief thing about me and Japan and my “Blaquneese-ness”
Now I find myself posting here more than 3 times a week at least,and it has to do with these topics. Are they just a hot topic because of Bush and Lott or what?
I love that “trash the argument” method myself. Very effective.
Let me make myself crystal clear:
Black discrimination can be divided into two groups: slavery and discrimination. Needless to say, there are no slaves surviving, so reparations based on that are bunk. As for discrimination…let me repeat this again: Blacks are not alone or even notably suffer more than other races. It happens to everyone. However, Blacks are much more active in speaking about past injustices than Asians…see the holocaust/nanjing comparison in my previous post. So there is no “special treatment” needed.
Re whoever said that the NAACP is the reason that minorities are treated well: I agree. In the beginning it was a very much good and “right” (oh-so-subtle pun) organization. Now, however…that’s a different story.
But comparing blacks with any immigrant group (whether they be white or Asian) is wrong because the majority of black Americans did not come from immigrant populations of recent. So they’ve been here longer, dealing with the ramifications of American racism longer than those who entered here in the last half of the past century. Your dichotomy of “black discrimination” is false. Slavery was not something separate and apart from discrimination (which you falsely portray as generic and equal for every minority); it simply falls on the end of the spectrum of what racism allows. You have to see it as part of a continuum. Not chopped into phases.
The discrimination that faced recent immigrants is not comparable to the institionalized racism that deliberately marginalized blacks from wealth and freedom for centuries. No one is maintaining that blacks are the most aggrieved people on the planet, but it’s wrong to say everyone has suffered the same. There has always been a hierarchial totem pole, with some groups placed above other groups.
Slavery and discrimination? Do you think these “groups” are separated in time? or space? Because for most of this country’s history, they have existed simultaneously.
You are the only one here whining about reparations.
Argurably, the Native Americans have suffered more. But no other group in this country has faced the kind of hellish shit that blacks have. This is a no-brainer, dude.
Gee…I wonder why? Could it be that 1) Black Americans have suffered more collectively, 2)Black Americans–being 100% American–have a sense that they are more entitled to the benefits of full citizens than, say, immigrants from another country, and 3) Black Americans are sick and tired of being kicked around, and are beginning to fight back? Or is it as simple as them being a bunch of whiners who don’t know how good they got it?
You seem to forget that all the “whining” black Americans have done has benefited other discriminated minorities.
Why? Did racial discrimination disappear when I wasn’t paying attention?
Asian immigrants were subjected to having their rights to citizenship abrogated for a long period, but they were still able to establish and maintain an economy within their own enclaves. Among Asian immigrants, a sizable number of Japanese were deprived of their property and, for four years, their livelihood.
However, blacks were subjected to repeated efforts (both cultural and systematic) to prevent them from developing an independent economy. In places where blacks did establish an economic base, they were liable to be burnt out as happened in the razing of the black economic district in Tulsa. Quite a few black communities were simply erased by white mobs who feared black independence. Lynching was used, extensively, to prevent blacks from “getting uppity.” In contrast to California, several Southern states deliberately gutted their education establishments so that they would not be forced to provide blacks education under the “Separate but Equal” clause of Plessy v Ferguson (and then simply denied blacks admittance to those colleges that actually were funded). Outside those states, blacks were generally placed in underfunded segregated schools. East Asian communities were able (as noted, above) to maintain relationships and communications with their source cultures, while blacks, having had their cultural ties destroyed, were completely isolated, both as to culture and as to economy. Blacks were frequently subjected to providing forced labor, free to the white community, under the guise of “emergencies” in ways that no other group was.
One may argue whether blacks or indians suffered more (an argument that would seem pointless, to me), but the claim that any immigrant group suffered as badly as either of these two groups displays a serious lack of historical understanding.
What’s with the bootlicking, athelas? You think that white people will like you better if you make blacks your enemy? It’s already bad enough when whites play the “oppressed white male”, shtichk, and I doubt they need Chinese sychophants to help them out. We all probably have roots in this country longer than you have (I know I do), what makes you think you can tell us anything?
Blacks as a group aren’t at all responsible for their own situation? I think a lot of blacks do fit the stereotype. Change the behavior of enough members of the group, and people will likely not stick to the stereotypes. And I know a lot of black people. I have worked with them and I do notice certain behaviors which I don’t find appealing. Get real. I know that black people shouldn’t be prejudged. But as a group they could present a better image.
You’re right. I’ll go tell all black people to change their behavior now, because as black person, I have the power to do so.
Really, why don’t you get off of black people’s back? Who are you to judge “black people”? And what is so hard to understand about blacks not being a monolith? What’s sad is that you didn’t realize how ridiculous your statement was before posting it. I don’t know what you are, but how could you possibly react to some internet ignoramous demanding that your group change its behavior, as if you’re responsible for the actions of others just because of your skin color?
When white people start worrying about how they present themselves to the rest of us, then we minorities will start worrying about looking good in front of them.
